UPDATE from SAJA Forum, articles, news and comments here

UPDATE: Arundhati’s brutally frank piece where she asks this question:

The unimaginable sums of public money that are needed to keep the military occupation of Kashmir going is money that ought by right to be spent on schools and hospitals and food for an impoverished, malnutritioned population in India. What kind of government can possibly believe that it has the right to spend it on more weapons, more concertina wire and more prisons in Kashmir?

India needs azadi from Kashmir as much as Kashmir needs azadi from India.”

Another UPDATE from Kashmir Affairs group on facebook – the video (not for the faint-hearted) below shows how Kashmiri ‘Islamic terrorists’ are being fought by the paramilitary forces.:

[youtube:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-elc3s14_Og]

Arundhati Roy is a rare, independent voice in the mainstream shrill. Her statement on Kashmir is a unique sentiment of nailing the problem when all others are busy singing to the tunes of jingoism, communalism, terrorism and of course the Pakistani ‘hand’. This report is a little sample:

SRINAGAR: Activist and author Arundhati Roy, who was present at the massive Monday rally, said that the people of Kashmir have made themselves abundantly clear.

“And if no one is listening then it is because they don’t want to hear. Because this is a referendum. People don’t need anyone to represent them; they are representing themselves. As somebody who has followed people’s movements and who has been in rallies and at the heart or the edge of things, I don’t think you can dispute what you see here,” she told TOI .

Roy also said that “since the 1930s, there have been debates and disputes about who has the right to represent the Kashmiri people, whether it was Hari Singh or Sheikh Abdullah or someone else. And the debate continues till today whether it is the Hurriyat or some other party.”

Then she added, “But I think today the people have represented themselves.”

Roy concluded with words, “India needs azadi from Kashmir as much as Kashmir needs azadi from India.”

136 Responses to Kashmir,Azadi and Arundhati Roy

  1. Naveen says:

    Kashmir would have been independent had it not been for Pakistan sending in the barbaric Pashtun tribals in 1947.

    Wonder why a similar rare, independent, sentiment doesn’t exist in Pakistan over Balochistan and NWFP?

  2. Manpreet says:

    It is relevant to suggest a reading of Vir Sanghvi’s “Counter Point” in Hindustan Times of Sunday last.

  3. The unholy Grail says:

    well, one has dare to say. actually, Indian state failed to internalize kashmir as a mainstream state and trying to occupied by army. after all, power performance is not solution.

  4. […] Rumi Kashmir,Azadi and Arundhati Roy 16 hours […]

  5. Abhay Tiwari says:

    as an idea it seems moral and logical to let kashmiris have their freedom, but I don’t think it is plausible given the nature of state and geo-political situation of kashmir. neither India nor Paksitan will let it happen.. If by some remote chance India decides in their favour, Pakistan will not leave them independent.. as long as it is in the realm of romanticism its alright but the plane of harsh realties shatters all its charm and bares the ugly and unjust side.

  6. Dastagir says:

    India had 61 years of physical control of J&K. Yet it could NOT win the hearts of the Kashmiris. It divided them into Hindu Jammu – Muslim Kashmir Valley – Buddhist Laddakh. Jammu had BJP/RSS for sustenance and support. Naturally Kashmiri had to look for support.. He found it in another quarter. In Kashmir there is a 700,000 strong Indian Army presence (<1 of whom are Muslims). Over 90,000 Kashmiri Youth (Terrorists) have been killed over the past 15-20 years. There is no count of homes burnt – girls raped ? There is no count. They just disappeared.

    J&K are part of Pakistan – if June 3, 1947 Plan is taken as a Basis. Gandhiji accepted Partition of India [ fulfilling the dream of Lal-Bal-Pal and Savarkar since 1915/1920] preferring it over Cabinet Mission Plan 1946.

    J&K is a part of Pakistan as per June 3, 1947 Plan. Sardar Patel was absolutely right., when he said that J&K (Hindu Ruler / 90% Muslim Population) should go to Pakistan. However, Hyderabad Deccan (Muslim Ruler / 80% Population Hindu) MUST be part of Indian Dominion. That made SENSE. Sardar Patel was practical and pragmatic.

    Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru… to do justice to his memory needed a laboratory – a region – to project the workability of secularism. He needed an intellectual handle on the RSS. Nehru realised the danger RSS posed both to Hinduism and to India in the long term. Nehru and Sarojini Naidu were the finest Hindus [if you look from a long-term perspective]. Congress was an umbrella organisation – Madan Mohan Malaviya, Head of the Hindu Maha Sabha was also the President of the Congress !. These sign-boards were blurred. Nehru did what he did BUT unfortunately, India had 60 years of physical control – what stopped it from developing J&K . What stopped it from creating an atmosphere where J&K citizens should have preferred Delhi to Lahore., and Mumbai to Karachi. Why is this dis-connect ? 60 years is a long period in time. India could have done something concrete. Instead, there were only gimmicks and superficial gestures (Wearing an orange saree in Jammu and speaking in RSS language… wearing a green saree in Kashmir and reciting verses in Urdu… that was Mrs. Indira Gandhi). This superficiality, white lies, rigged elections (literal dis-empowerment), corruption, unemployment + on top of this presence of a huge army with no respect for human rights alienated the Kashmiris. India missed the opportunity. Phsyical control of the land .. yes… but hearts and minds.. no. India could not conquer the hearts and minds.

    RSS partitioned India in 1947 – it wants to partition J&K again. Hindu Jammu (read : expel Muslims from Jammu);, Muslim Kashmir (Jagmohan of RSS lifted Pundits from the valley when he was Governor); and Buddhist Laddakh. They are at it again.

    India is a huge country – Arundhati is saying the plain truth. India must do what it must with good intent. Intention is everything. If it plays games – people understand ! Every Shalinyas – every rath yatra – every Babri Masjid – every Mumbai 1992 – every Gujarat 2002 – weakens India’s case in Kashmir. There should be communal harmony in India. You cant have Gujarat 2002 in “Secular India”., and also lay your clain to Communal Kashmir !

    All communal parties must be banned in India. 100 people must be in jail for 100 crores to sleep peacefully. By nature, Indians (Hindu and Muslims) are peaceful – but hate-merchants like Togadia, Modi, Ashok Singhal indulge in hate-speech inciting young hindus (both in.. and out of uniform… i.e.) to rape, kill, burn, steal muslim property with impunity [Police tumhare Saath Hai ! They are literally inciting young Hindus to break LAW !]. When this mindset gains strength in India Kashmir inches AWAY from India. The congress is known to push things in the carpet. BJP will try to make political capital out of this – creating further hatred and polarising society. BJP relies on its “HATE-BANK” that guarantees it 100 seats in the Lok Sabha. So riots are necessary to consolidate this “Hate Bank”.

    Social harmony is more vital than 10% Growth. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh should understand that… but since he is not a politician.. he is happy with figures.. pie-charts.. bar-charts.. and so on. The tsunami of civil war will wash away all the gains made. It is time to preserve India. Let sanity prevail., otherwise all the good work done over the 60 years would be undone !

    Reduce the figures of the Indian army – if some have to be kept at the borders – let them be – but they should not kill citizens of their own country. How can you imagine an Indian soldier killing a kashmiri ? It means either the soldier and the kashmiri are NOT one … or.. the fact that the army is an occupying army.

    It cant be both. That situation must change on the ground. Indian Government can still correct the course. Development must be the “Mantra”. Develop J&K – it has huge potential. Let the Hindu of Jammu – the muslim of Kashmir – and the Buddhist of Ladakh… grow economically. Provide them good security. When they are enriched – india is enriched too.

    J&K is a part of India. Prove it in deed. Since RSS has monopoly on “nationalism”… RSS volunteers can be considered to be posted on the borders.. to guard Bharat Mata. But they must not be allowed to rape / kill / burn their Muslim brothers/sisters in Kashmir.

  7. zen says:

    Forget about kashmir for a while… and see the bigger picture..
    Its basically a problem of religious nature… and i don’t want to speak anymore than why muslims all over the world … so intolerent to other religions.. its a fact … they have broken budhists statues and killed millions of people in “holy wars”.. the semitic religions are the root of all religious disharmony… and you can argue another 5000 years about this fact…. a muslim will never understand and will never totally accept and give respect to others religion and so they are basically terrorists…. yes .. all the kids know the king is naked… but not the ” muslims” nor the “intellectuals “..who are worse than sentimetalists and poets …

  8. RR says:

    Zen
    At first I wanted to delete your comment but then I thought that let this be a sample of pure hate speech against Muslims. You are obviously not aware of history especially that of religions. Your rant is purely driven by anti-Muslim mindset that sees all evil in Muslims.

    I would not even bother to respond to your ignorance..

  9. Sidhusaaheb says:

    I think that the only practicable solution that can bring relatively permanent and long-lasting peace to the sub-continent, at least on account of the Kashmir issue, is to declare the Line of Control (LoC) as the international border.

    I believe politicians in India as well as Pakistan are acutely aware of this, but are scared of the virtual ‘political suicide’ that this could entail for them, on account of the rhetoric that they have built up on the subject.

  10. IMeMy says:

    “I believe politicians in India as well as Pakistan are acutely aware of this, but are scared of the virtual ‘political suicide’ that this could entail for them, on account of the rhetoric that they have built up on the subject”
    Truly said Sidhusaaheb! May reason and peace prevail in Kashmir!

  11. RC Sharma says:

    A few hard core seculars are advocating that Kashmir should be allowed to secede. They try to couch it in various forms, but all boil down to :RELIGION.

    Permit it and be ready to face similar demands. All christians in NE and Goa will demand such rights. Muslims in pockets where they are strong will demand it, Kerala being a ripe candidate. Tamils may not be far behind.

    Arundhati Roy and her co-horts will have no problem if India is balkanised.

  12. Vishnu Sharma says:

    I here by SENTENCE Arundhati Roy to Death.
    We the Webizens of India Citizens of India who have access to the Web hereby Sentence Arundhati Roy to death for sedition against the
    Indian constitution.

    This sentence should be carried out in 30 days.

  13. IH says:

    I think Ms. Arundhati Roy is dead on. If 700,000 Indian troops cannot keep peace in Kashmir, the problem is with the rest of the Indians and not the Kashmiris.

    The hatred against Muslims expressed by some on this blog is unbelievable. May God have mercy on you and show you the love of other human beings regardless of their caste, color, gender and religion.

    I say let’s free Kashmir from Indian occupation.

  14. K Singh says:

    Arundhati is befooling herself if she thinks that so called azadi is the solution. It is basically religious intolerance that Kasmiri Muslims have already exhibited by flushing non Muslims out of Kashmir and all the pseudosecularists need to understand that this process will continue as for a muslim it is his duty to either CONVERT, OR CHASE AWAY and if this does no work then KILL to install ISLAM. So this problem needs to be nipped in bud.

  15. abc says:

    This is regarding the Intolerance in Gujarat and Babri Masjid. Personally I don’t believe in god. 80% Indians are Hindus and Muslims accounts for 15% just imagine the reverse if 80% Muslim. By these 61 years every one must have converted forcefully to Muslim. People like me who doe not believe in god would not be left alive. But in India I am free to say I that god do not exist but if we live in a country with 80% Muslim population I am dead.

  16. kali says:

    If you are a Kashmiri Pandit who had to leave his homeland because of the Islamic terrorists why woud you not dislike Islam? Please tell me in what Islamic country religious minorities have rights? Why do 150 million muslims in India not move to their beloved Pakistan or Bangladesh? Or to their great Arab brother states who treat Pakistanis and Bangladeshi and other poorer Muslims with soooooo much respect that they are not even counted as people there? Hello, if Muslims do not like INdia and start to cause trouble they are free to leave. As simple as that. Just as if someone does not like it in the U.S. A. they are free to leave.
    If you look at the history of Kashmir–the very name and history suggests HIndu and Buddhist civilization. The Pandits refused to convert to a Bedouin Arab religion for centuries and endured in their homeland. Muslims are there because of forced conversions and because people had to pay higher taxes for being non muslims. Once the Arab states run out of oil and smart people discover alternative sources of energy, they will revert to their camel riding days and Arab support for failed terrorist states like Pakistan will stop and all this nonsense created by Muslims will stop cause they will have no money to cause mischief around the world.
    The Kashmiri Muslims have some balls—living off the dole of the Indian government and killing Hindus and making the state 100 percent muslim. Time Indian must take a firm stand and sent all traitors packing to Pakistan or Saudi or Bangladesh. The problem stated with Gandhi and Nehru who did not realize that when Muslims are in the minority they want fair treatment but when they are in the majority they want Sahriah law. Sardar Patel would have sent them all to Pakistan and the problem would be over. Now look what has happened because Gandhi and Nehru wanted to show the world how humane India is by letting Muslims stay. How did Russia deal with the Georgian situation. India needs to learn a lesson and Hindus must wake up and send all terrorists packing to Pakistan where they belong.
    I dare you to delete my post because you know I am speaking the truth.
    Is there one Muslim country that has democracy or the freedom of expression?

  17. Vishnu Sharma says:

    Muslims are very disingenuous when they accuse other of hating them. It is they who hate all other religions to the core.
    They lie and hate simultaneously. No wonder nobody likes them in this world which they are hell bent on destroying.

    If Muslims in Kashmir do not want to live in India let them go to Pakistan.

    Arundhati Roy is just being used by Pakistanis because of her anti-India stance.

  18. RealityKing says:

    The real reason behind the war is that Kashmir has the headwaters of all major rivers flowing into the subcontinent and is therefore prime real estate. Everything else is hogwash. Religion is just a cover. Pakistan is the last country in the world that should talk of religious tolerance, secularism, human rights etc when it cannot even sustain a semblance of democracy. Indias democracy has its issues but at least its a democracy. Pakistan is a failed society. If they control the headwaters in Kashmir they control their own destiny. Otherwise “big brother” does and thats the real issue. Wake up and get real !!!

  19. billo says:

    Gosh, there’s a lot of hatred on this blog!
    I think some of the people here-despite their fanaticism-make some valid points: there is a growing trend of intolerance and a lot of muslim countries have a very poor record when it comes to the rights of minorities. That cannot be denied.

    But what strikes me as quite odd is: 1. that Raza’s blog-and the Islamic tradition that he alludes to in his writings- is the precise oppositie of that intolerance, and so people who talk about “islam” as a monolithic, ahistoric entity haven’t been reading this blog for very long ! and
    2) The hatred that people have expressed here is really a defence mechanism:the inability to transcend a petty sort of nationalism (“sickness and unreason ” I think Nietzsche called it).

    Instead of facing up to the crimes that the Indian state has committed one decides to take the easy way out and rant (this is NOT to ignore the crimes by terrorists in Kashmir or the terrible explsion of Hindu Kashmiris). But to ignore the deaths of so many people and reduce this to a matter of ‘religion’ or politics is really shoddy thinking. As walt whitman would say: we need to see other people as human beings, not as dots and dreams.

    Oh God, I hope we get independence from both sets of fanatics.

  20. kali says:

    First of all, the Indian army kills Muslims because they engage in terrorist activities. Not even the army could protect the Pandits–who have a long history of non violence. The entire Muslim valley rose against the Pandits, the State lost control–this is why they left.
    Can you name non-Mulisms who enjoy living in a Muslim country?
    Even my Iranian friends say that it is very intolerant religion, imported from barbaric bedouins–they even say that it has destroyed Persian culture. Educated Iranians say it is their religion because they were forced to convert by the sword–but they dislike everything Arab still. Nice thing about Iranians is that you can say the worst things about Islam and they will agree!!!
    In Kashmir, most Muslims are either low caste people who converted to Islam, or people who converted because they had to pay very high taxes , or they were poor and had to convert for material reasons to be able to work in a Muslim dominated court, or the descendants to those who came in to spread Islam in the valley.
    Originally Kashmir, the cradle of HIndu civilization and Mahayana Buddhism, let the Muslims come in as they were tolerant. However, as the Muslims grew more powerful with a Islamic court in Delhi they started to force their religion on others. Why should HIndus and Buddhists convert to a religion founded by a Bedoiun prophet who came from the desert of Arabia where they were so barbaric that they had to fight over water? The Turkish barbaric hordes who attacked India and brought in the religion to India. They had always dreamed of spreading Islam to a beautiful place like Kashmir. Of course it is the opposite of the kind of place that Islam was founded and I guess they got what they wanted because without any Hindus left look at what it has now become! I hear that it is really dirty and unrecognizable now. Before it was progressive because it was multi cultural. Now it is 100 percent Muslim. And the population is getting more radicalized and fanatic. Soon they will probably have their dream of Sharian law since they have cleansed it of all other ethnic groups, people who have been living there long before there was a religion called Islam in existence.
    Kashmir–the very name is Hindu. Muslims have no association with it other than that they forced many people to convert and made the area majority Muslim. Kashmir is the Jerusalem for Hindus and also very holy for Buddhists. Only out of such a sublime environment did great religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism grow. Hindus should be willing to fight and die for the cradle of their civilization and should send all Muslim terrorists to Pakistan, Saudi and Bangladesh. Enough of appeasing Muslims. If Muslims in Kashmir Valley do not respect others than it is time perhaps for a last war with Pakistan over Kashmir. Pakistan should stop interference in Kashmir or it should be willing to accept 150 million Muslims, because India has no need for traitors who advocate Pakistani currency in Kashmir and cannot get along with the Hindus. If Pakistan gets Kashmir, then it should be prepared for an influx of 150 more Muslim brothers. Because there comes a time when people have had enough of this!!
    Look at Azad Kashmir, how backward and illiterate the people are there without the subsidies that Kashmiris on the India side enjoy.
    If Muslims do not like it in India, get out, go to Pakistan!
    What happened to Kashmir when Islam became dominant? The same thing what happened to countries like Iran–it went into a decline. There was no longer any or literature of philosophy. Just carpets and shawls and some gardens for the Mogul court to enjoy. One just has to read history to see this. Now look at it–100 percent Muslims and how progressive it has become.

  21. kali says:

    The solution is to push out all those who do not wish to live in India to Pakistan or Bangladesh. It might be even good riddance. Less illiterate people to uplift.

  22. Dastagir says:

    Kali : Typically Savarkarian (Bal-Lal-Pal) mindset. They wanted partition as early as 1915 to 1920. United India meant “sharing real power” (sharing the spoils)., which they wanted to avoid at any cost.

    Thats why, Gandhi ji preferred partition over Cabinet Mission Plan…(“This is worst than Pakistan !”)

    Jinnah’s own proposal to the Cabinet Mission on May 12, 1946 envisaged : not partition, but a confederation based on 3 groups. The bargainer would have conceded Federation in a settlement. The Congress wrecked the Mission’s Plan by dishonest prevarication.

    There was a trap laid – and pressure applied (unleashing riots, i.e.). The strategy was to push so much… and to the wall… that ultimately the Indian Muslims ask for “separation”. They succeeded. Sanity was thrown to the winds. RSS knew what it was doing – and succeeded. But India’s growth potential was stunted thereby… they did not care for it. It was a price … to get rid of a necessary “evil”… so that they could build a society according to their own genius (as we see the flowering of that dream in Gujarat after 60 years !). Only Maulana Azad resisted it.. but they walked over him. Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan & Dr. Khan Sahib were quickly abandoned. Lifetime of work utterly dis-regarded when push came to shove. The British enjoyed it all. The British Parliament disposed off, the India Independence Bill in exactly 15 minutes !

  23. Akif Syed says:

    I am a friend of Raza (in the literal sense) and an admirer of Ms. Roy the Kashmiris and all freedom loving people – whose courage defies all repression. I was fortunate to hear this frail, petite woman when she came to Pakistan, the heroine of Narbada’s people power. She reminds me of Abdul Qayyum Nashad’s verse

    talk hai kita sukh say jeena, pooch na yeh fankaron say
    hum sub loha kaat rahay hain, kaghaz ki talwaron say

    Ask not the people of art and letters, how bitter life is
    We all are attempting to cut iron with swords of paper

    This is not the first time that people’s power is speaking – nor will it be the last. In my own country it was people’s power that pushed out a despot who had convinced himself that he was an “elected leader” [Before you make a fool of others you must make a fool of yourself]. I recall Mahatir Muhammad’s last words before he resigned as PM of Malaysia after 19 years in office: “I want to leave before someone kicks my butt”.

    But few realize this fundamental truth: the Frensh left Algeria after killing a million Algerians (and then apologizing to them and setting aside a national day of remembrance); they returned to Vietnam and were thrown out by the Will of the people who then wnet under the yoke of the most powerful nation in the world; Israel has not conquered the Palestinians after 41 years (or perhaps 60); the Russians have only subdued some of the 12 odd nations born out of the demise of their union.

    Power makes a fool of us – unless we continuously remind ourselves that pharoahs, ceasars, emperors were also rubbed into the dust that will overtake all of us.

    The point is not whether Pakistan is a good role model or whether Muslims being so evil should be decimated from India (for good riddance) – if not the whole world (for a new Final Solution), the point is simply that Ms. Roy said that to her it appeared the Indian state had failed to integrate these people in 60 years.

    There have been many vitriolic comments on this blog. I only wish to present these people with examples of forgiveness and reconcilliation. Let us remind ourselves that we live only once. and that we should not make life miserable for ourselves or for others. Remember the golden rule: do unto others as you wish to be done unto yourself. Just because the Indians – mostly Hindus suffered for many hundred years at the hands of Muslims should not be a reasons to pour misery on the Kashmiris. Let us be fair and remember that partition took place on the basis of majority rule: The Muslim rulers of Junagadh and Hyderabad opted out of the Indian union were were military forced into its fold on acocunt of Hindu majorities yet the same principle was not applied to Kashmir…its a long story but let fairness prevail…

    Dil saaf ho kis tarah ke insaaf nahi hai
    insaaf ho kid tarah ke did saaf nahi hai

  24. kali says:

    The more I think of it, perhaps it was really good that India was partitioned. Otherwise the Muslim population would be huge there. And one just has to look at Kashmir and Pakistan to realize that when they become the majority they want Sahriah law and treat religious minorities really badly. At least with partition, people who do not contribute to civilization went to Pakistan and Bangladesh. Now India has to deal with a large Muslim population which can turn radical–they are still allowed four wives and hence the crazy population growth. You look at Pakistan and Bangladesh and realize what happens when Muslims obtain arms and form a nation. Look everywhere at Muslim nations. Can you point to one that is progressive and contributes to civilization? Even Turkey is having problems with radical elements. I sincerely believe that Islam is the biggest threat to civilization everywhere globally–my Muslim friends such as Iranians who know their history and have not forgotten their true Persian roots always agree on this–so that proves a great deal. In India perhaps the lower castes were discriminated against and now they are being uplifted–but the Muslim populaion? I doubt they will ever enter into the mainstream.
    So when you consider that there are a lot less Muslims to cause trouble in India, you realize that partition was a good thing.
    One thing India should do–remove all radical Muslims to Pakistan and Bangladesh and build something like a Berlin Wall so that they may never enter India and cause trouble.

    • Mac.. says:

      ok fine … u want partition … agreed … let the land be divided in ratio and proportion of the population of Hindus : Muslim : Sikh : Christian …. but unfortunately idiots lyk u cant even calculate the ratios…. i have alwayz believe that the Muslim League was responsible for partition … but actually its the idiots lyk u … radical chaddiwalas .. who sowed the seed of hatred … and divided the nation … u can see others hatred against u.. but not ur own hatred against others religion … forget islam … if u are done wid muslims .. then u will move towards other religions sikh ; christians ; buddhist … wen u are done wid all of them u will target your own hindu brothers on the basis of caste ; class and dont knw wht … actually its your religion which degrades people by dividing them into different castes and sects… stop poiniting fingures on others … u are also a radical extremist terrorist and seperatist like JIHadiss…

  25. kali says:

    By the Muslims logic, all Muslims in India should go to Pakistan or Bangladesh. Why do they stay there? Because they know that they enjoy rights and are better off economically. But to stay in a country and be ungrateful and start fomenting trouble means that they must not stay there but go to Pakistan or Bangladesh. If Kashmir goes to Pakistan then Pakistan must be prepared to accept an exodus of 150+ muslims. Then we will see what kind of nation it will become.
    The partition was a great thing–but it did not benefit India because they did not do a clean partion and Indian still has a great population of Muslims.
    I just thank god that my ancestors fought and as a result I do not have to wear a burka nor follow the religion of Arabs but that of our ancestors—

  26. RR says:

    Kali
    You are abusing free expression – your views border on fascism – plain and simple. Not only that you are ignorant of history but you are a racist and a bigot.
    I suggest that you spend your time and energy in working for RSS rather than ranting here. If you are an NRI then just put in money in Hindutva fascist brigades as your views are perfectly aligned to their extremism.
    You must be joking that Indian Muslims are doing well- or you are plain ignorant. 68 percent of OBCs are Muslims and a majority lives below the poverty line.
    Have you heard of the Sachar Committee report – i bet you haven’t. It might be better if you were to check on your facts and then spit venom..

  27. kali says:

    Arundhati’s book is very medoocre. It is well written but is just a book for entertainment just as hundreds of bestseller are written for entertainment–in no way is it good literature. People say she obtained the award because there was nothing better written that year–just shows how culture in general is deteriorating–when it comes to literature.

  28. kali says:

    Is it the HIndus’ fault that they go to Mardassas and do not educate themselves? Or that they have four wives and ten children that they cannot afford? Hello? I knew this girl from Karachi attending an American Universitiy. She was from a Middle class family in Pakistan. She said that her village stopped talking to her parents because they had sent her to the U.S.A. Perhaps it is your culture that holds people down.
    RSS? I have no connection to RSS. I just have read and understand my history unlike most Indians who have no sense of history, because if they did they would not be repeating it like right now? Why am I against the OBC? They are getting affirmative action seats–it it not their fault but that of the government that tries affirmative action instead of free quality universal education as a solution. As for Kashmiri Muslims, I know they have no gratitude. The Pandits were most teachers and non-violent and educated them, as most Muslims were illiterate. Look at the result. I call living off billions of dollars of Indian government money and causing terrorism ingratitude. The Hindus and Muslims were living peacefully in the valley until Benazir started using American money intended to Afghanistan to fight Russians that had to go through Pakistan to support insurgents in Kashmir. This is how trouble started there. So please do not call me a bigot–the valley was multi-cultural and people were living in harmony before 89 although there was systematic discrimination of the Pandits by the Muslims. Well you own people gave Benazir her just reward because violence begets violence. If your people want to attend Madrassas instead of getting a real education–do not blame Hindus. The Indian government spends about 10481 in an individual in Kashmir and 941 per individual in Bihar in terms of human development. What is the result. Throwing money down the tubes.
    Do not call me a bigot. Lets us not go into personal insults. Just give me good arguments to consider your claims.
    Muslims in Kashmir ask for Pandits to come back. Even Middle class muslims have left the valley. Now it is full of Muslims from the rural areas who are radicalized and do not have much education.
    Why call me a bigot? I have a lot of Muslim friends–Iranian, Afghan and others. But they agree with me on my views on Islam.
    One does not choose one’s religion. Perhaps instead of complaining all the time, Muslims should try to uplift themselves and also read a bit of history about their religion–they should educate themselves and contribute to civilization–only then will people start to respect them.

  29. kali says:

    As far as I am concerned, the Hindu and Buddhist roots of Kashmir valley will never be able to be erased, even if the Muslims in the valley try to erase it just as they try elsewhere like in Iran to erase the pre-Islamic glory of a region. Look at Pandits. When they were kicked out og their ancestral lands by terrorists, no one helped them. Many who grew up in camps are now doctors and engineers. They have helped themselves by educating themselves and many were able to escape the camps and be successful. So why cannot Muslims help themselves and stop complaining?

  30. Gori says:

    check out the article to know what kashmir youths had to say about the whole azadi issue. It is just few thousands of anti-indians who are making things worse for the state. They should be hanged immediately.

  31. kali says:

    Hey Gori nice article–esp from the BBC which even the British accuse of being too liberal. Looks like their Sheykh does not like to seem them educated and would like to see them locked up in mideveal Madarssas. Kashmiri Muslims were much different and generally not as radical as those in Pakistan–the radicalization started with the insurgency. Hopefully they will return to their former nature for that is the only hope left for them if they are not to self-destruct like their muslim brothers in Pakisan.

  32. kali says:

    I just love how others are able to post but each of my comments awaits moderation? What have I said that is not the truth?

  33. kali says:

    And to end your blog which you say is not for the faint hearted how about a little dose of Kashmiri Pandits story who no longer have a home in their ancestral lands? I just dare you to delete it. I watched your video so you would watch this. If you want to show that Muslims allow for fair debate than you will not delete this. Shows Benazir inciting people.

    http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=eCRFWStxV_4

    http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=u2vsztUdkpU&feature=related

  34. Satish Ganjoo says:

    What about Kashmiri Pandits who are associated with the saffron valley since last 10,000 years————– with its history, culture, tradition, customs, society, etc.

  35. Dastagir says:

    Kali : Your writing (true to your name) symbolises hatred and violence. The way a person argues his case displays his/her upbringing. Your case is pathetic bordering on frustrated rant. It is an old RSS tactic. Shout loud/repeatedly to overpower truth. RSS has damaged the psyche of the Indian people – selling hatred since 1926.

    This highlights the levels of hatred that have permeated Indian society. Indian Army & CRPF show their machismo (manliness) only before Kashmiri crowds. That is because there is NO connection whatsoever.

    Why dont they use rubber bullets. People are revolting now. This is “people’s power”. This is “referendum”.

    Holding Kashmir as “hostage” – a price – to allow 15 crore scattered Indian Muslims to breathe is the final argument. After this, there is nothing to blackmail ! Kashmiris are so alienated from India now (thanks to its wonderful record on human rights); they really dont care.

    Kill 15 crore Indian Muslims. A man-made disaster, i.e. This is due to lack of leadership. Vajpayee said that he would solve J&K problem – that would be his legacy – but he back-tracked. Instead, Gujarat 2002 became his legacy. “Aag pehle kis ne lagaayi”.. he said in Goa.

    Godhra mein.. Pehli Aag.. RSS ne lagaayi thee.. Throw beef in a temple… garland Gandhi’s statue with beef… and start slaughtering Muslims (The Old RSS tactic). Guru Golwalkar was caught with bombs and ammunition in Meerut (1950s). GB Pant, then CM of UP, allowed Golwalkar to escape. RSS is a criminal mafia – and a gang ! As simple as that.

    Hate is a Billion Dollar business. 70% of the US Economy depends on war business.

    India has problems with all its neighbours ! The moment is crucial and historic for India. It can be a major power (IF it shows a tolerant world-view – sharing spoils of state with all its people. Today 3% of the pop is holding 85% top jobs. How do you explain that).

    Gujarat is a Hindu majority state. All its top officials are Hindu. In the similar vein, J&K is a muslim-majority state., but all top jobs are held by HIndus. How do you explain THAT ?

    If India opts for RSS world-view (we hold Kashmir hostage as a price to allow 15 crore indian muslims to remain inside india), the threshold has now been crossed. Kashmiris really dont care. RSS can start its ethnic cleansing. Of course this would invite its own responses (following Newton’s Law). “Aag pehle kis ne lagaayi” … and the game starts.

    Godhra mein aag RSS ne lagaayi. 50 innocent hindus were killed. Later RSS slaughtered 5000 Muslims. Polarisation was complete., and that lead to electoral victory ! Bingo !!

    Kashmir is not India. From the viewpoint of race., language, culture, food-habits, dress, even VOICE. The moment you step on its soil, you can feel.. this is NOT India. It is something different. Indian army knows that it is an occupying army !

    India cant have Mumbai 1992/Godhra 2002 and Kashmir. It must decide. If it wants Godhra 2002, Kashmir slips. If it wants to keep Kashmir within the Union, it must ensure that Godhra 2002 is not repeated…. but who can guarantee… RSS has permeated the Army / Police / Politics / Judiciary / Journalists / Doctors / and what not. Infact RSS has permeated the Indian Psyche.

    Savarkar is now the Father of the Indian Nation replacing Gandhi. The masks have fallen !

    RSS is driving recklessly, and it will not rest until it turns India into Afghanistan. If Muslims could not live peacefully in Pakistan, how can all Hindus live “happily ever after” once Indian Muslims are exterminated ! Indian Muslims are holding India together.. playing the role of a punching bag. Look at what is happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Same will happen in Hindu India. Hindu Taliban will cause untold suffering. That seems to be its destiny… cuz sanity is becoming weak by the day in India.

    J&K citizens have “Asmita” too (including the Kashmiri Pundits – who were lifted by RSS/Jagmohan as a pre-emptive / precautionary measure). J&K citizens (including the Muslims of Jammu) are entitled to “Asmita” too.. along with Kashmiri pundits.

    J&K joined India under special circumstances (infact no one has seen the Instrument of Accession.. some say.. it doesnt exist !). India must try to win the hearts and minds of J&K. It doesnt require military measures. They require love.. tolerance.. investment.. and development.

    If J&K is “part of India”, then why is India not developing J&K. It has a 700,000 military presence ! This is a moment and a challenge. Both for India and the Kashmiris. If the discourse is conducted in a RSS-style.. it would suck the whole of S.E. Asia and push it into war.. tears.. and total destruction. Hatred would suck SE Asia like a vaccum cleaner. India is underplaying the role of RSS. In Theocratic Pakistan, Communal elements never won an election (<5% of the votes). In Secular India, BJP came to power in the centre for 6 years.. and presently rules in 6 major provinces/states. India must control / rein in / ban RSS. It has to choose between RSS and development. It cant have both. Masks dont hold in 2008. People cant be fooled. This is not 1947.

  36. Nadeem says:

    Well i have gone through the comments above and its ridiculous that people who don’t belong to the problem are giving suggestions to solve it…..

    I am a Kashmiri Muslim and i only i am the sufferer….

    First let me clear the concept of Islam that people have about it out of their ignorance. Islam means peace. The reasons that people are against Islam is due to the propaganda of the western media. If you know even the 9/11 is yet to be proved that it was done by Muslims, and their are evidences that it was even manipulated. USA is just paving the ways to attack Muslim nations, firstly it was Afghanistan, then Iraq and now they have an eye on Iran. It is a well know fact that even criticizing Islam every now and then, it is still the fastest growing religion. Now you tell me how many people were killed in 9-11, even if for the sake of argument that was done by Muslims? Is that count more than the innocent people that have been killed by USA in Afghanistan and Iraq.
    You people are taking about the harsh and barbaric laws that Islam is following. I just wanna tell you that in the most liberal state USA is in the top of the list among rape incidents, robberies, etc. What do you mean Liberalism? Does it mean that we can have more pre-marriage babies than post-marriage ones? Does it mean that women should dress almost naked so that they can show their beauty? Does it mean that the divorce rate should exceed the marriage rate? Does it mean that we can have lesbian and gay marriages? Is this is what you call liberality then i would wish to remain slave for my whole life.

    I have nothing to do with Pakistan or India, nor we are fighting a religious war. We Kashmirs believe that we were an independent state and should be what we were. Had Pakistan been our concern, we would have never ought help from India. It is the double standard that India has been playing ever since it has occupied the land illegally, they promised us that we should decide our fate through plebiscite which is yet to be fulfilled. We also don’t speak only about that part which is under India, but also Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Kashmir that was on 14th August 1947.

    Regarding Kashmiri Pandits, they were our brothers and will remain our brothers. They were also victims of hypocrisy by the government of India. It was a ploy used by then governor of State Jagmohan, to separate Hindus from Muslims, so that he can kill Kashmir Muslims at will. We tried our best that Pandits should remain there and are still inviting them to come back.

    For God’s sake don’t make it a religious issue, it is a regional dispute even accepted by UNO. Had we been against religion, we could have stopped Amarnath Yatra when the movement was on peak in early 90’s. Instead we Muslims take care of it, since it commensurate way back in 19th century. We just want justice and that can be done by making the people of J&K to decide their fate themselves and not by India or Pakistan.

  37. kali says:

    And finally, all I can say is that is Muslims are so unhappy in India, why do they not leave to greener pastures in Pakistan or Bangladesh? Were these countries not created for Muslims because they were unhappy living in India? If they do not like it in India, they are free to leave–they stayed becasue of their own accord. They should uplift and educate themselves, not destroy civilization. Just quit whining and complaining and get yourselves an education through hard work and quit whining on the internet about how India holds you down. Do not blame others for your own ineptitude. I have already wasted precious time on this silly blog. Goodbye.

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  39. Dastagir says:

    Kali : You are not the Passport / Conduct Certificate Issuing Authority ! Who are you to suggest this or that ? Bring 80 together and exterminate the 20… Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. We have seen a plague in Gujarat.. followed by a terrible earth-quake during Moditva. Gujarat is the laboratory of Hindutva (hatred and mob violence) today. Initially it would provide some joy of sadism among gujaratis… and then the intellectual implosion and frustration would start.

    All individuals are born Muslim… cuz Islam is the natural religion of man. Adam was a Muslim. After age 18, every individual must examine his life and try to find answers to some basic questions (instead of being tutored by Bal Thackerey / Modi / RSS / Advani).

    Idol worship creates duality and delusion. As regards the argument that we use the “idol” to focus, read what Ramakrishna Paramahansa (the KALI Bhakt of Belur) has to say.

    The whole of creation is Muslim. Individuals.. trees.. plants.. leaves.. rivers.. mountains.. air.. Even if Modi/RSS eliminate Indian Muslims, every single leaf on every single tree in India is Muslim. They will have to burn the whole of India from earth to sky to destroy Islam (scorch earth policy – thats what RSS [in military fatigue] is doing in J&K]. I hate the word conversion. It is reverting… back to the original religion.

    Muslims have flaws… Do not judge Islam at the bar of muslim behavior… Islam is as much yours as any muslim’s. It is a guideline for the whole of humanity. Read.. halt.. ponder.. think.. reflect.. and you will find your own lights. Let your heart be your guide.

    This is not a critique.. but honestly, Hinduism and Humanism are incompatible. If Humanism is injected into Hinduism., it would be great… and that must be encouraged [Tagore / Raja Ram Mohan Roy / Eashwarchand Vidyasagar tried it… ] . Manu-vaad that separates individuals – preaches hatred and segregation – encourages negativity – honestly as a philosophy has no future in 2008. In the short-term, like Nazism… it may “rock”… but then the bubble would burst. It would dilute in 2 generations.

    You cannot build a civilisation on hatred for the “other”. 80% of Indian Muslims are those., whose fore-fathers converted to Islam voluntarily… escaping the sick and perverted discrimination of the Hindu caste system. Yes… but then nothing is permanent. Change is the law of nature. Now the progency of those converts (from Hinduism to Islam)., are willing to die… but not leave Islam. Their fore-fathers converted at the point of the sword., says RSS… That is bull-shit. Hate cannot sustain itself so long. Now their progency.. iw willing to die… be burnt alive… than leave Islam. Why are muslims suffering so much… these are matters of the heart.

    Hatred will destroy you… in the end. Discover the power of love. It is a more benign and powerful force.

  40. kali says:

    Hey what kind of moderation is this? You Muslim buddies’ comments however irrational all appear here but you need to moderate mine for speaking the truth? MWAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  41. kali says:

    Here is one for Dagstir by Arun Shourie for he just seems to love Hindutva;-)
    SPECIAL TO THE EXPRESS

    Hindutva and radical Islam: Where the twain do meet
    Arun Shourie
    Posted online: Friday, December 28, 2007 at 0000 hrs Print Email
    Every set of scriptures has in it enough to justify extreme, even violent reaction. The tectonic shift in the Hindu mind, that has been going on for 200 years, is being underestimated

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    Your Hindutva is no different from Islamic fundamentalism’ — a fashionable statement these days, one that immediately establishes the person’s secular credentials. It is, of course, false, as we shall see in a moment. But there is a grain of potential truth in it — something that does not put Hinduism at par with Islam, but one that should, instead, serve as a warning to all who keep pushing Hindus around. That grain is the fact that every tradition has in it, every set of scriptures has in it enough to justify extreme, even violent reaction. From the very same Gita from which Gandhiji derived non-violence and satyagraha, Lokmanya Tilak constructed the case for ferocious response, not excluding violence. From the very same Gita from which Gandhiji derived his ‘true law’, shatham pratyapi satyam, ‘Truth even to the wicked’, the Lokmanya derived his famous maxim, shatham prati shaathyam, ‘Wickedness to the wicked.’

    In the great work, Gita Rahasya, that he wrote in the Mandalay prison, the Lokmanya invokes Sri Samartha, ‘Meet boldness with boldness; impertinence by impertinence must be met; villainy by villainy must be met.’ Large-heartedness towards those who are grasping? Forgiveness towards those who are cruel? ‘Even Prahlada, that highest of devotees of the Blessed Lord,’ the Lokmanya recalls, has said, ‘Therefore, my friend, wise men have everywhere mentioned exceptions to the principle of forgiveness.’ True, the ordinary rule is that one must not cause harm to others by doing such actions as, if done to oneself, would be harmful. But, the Mahabharata, Tilak says, ‘has made it clear that this rule should not be followed in a society, where there do not exist persons who follow the other religious principle, namely, others should not cause harm to us, which is the corollary from this first principle.’ The counsel of ‘equability’ of the Gita, he says, is bound up with two individuals; that is, it implies reciprocity. ‘Therefore, just as the principle of non-violence is not violated by killing an evil-doer, so also the principle of self-identification [of seeing the same, Eternal Self in all] or of non-enmity, which is observed by saints, is in no way affected by giving condign punishment to evil-doers.’ Does the Supreme Being not Himself declare that He takes incarnations from time to time to protect dharma and destroy evil-doers? Indeed, the one who hesitates to take the retaliatory action that is necessary assists the evil to do their work. ‘And the summary of the entire teaching of the Gita is that: even the most horrible warfare which may be carried on in these circumstances, with an equable frame of mind, is righteous and meritorious.’

    Tilak invokes the advice of Bhisma, and then of Yudhisthira, ‘Religion and morality consist in behaving towards others in the same way as they behave towards us; one must behave deceitfully towards deceitful persons, and in a saintly way towards saintly persons.’ Of course, act in a saintly way in the first instance, the Lokmanya counsels. Try to dissuade the evil-doer through persuasion. ‘But if the evilness of the evil-doers is not circumvented by such saintly actions, or, if the counsel of peacefulness and propriety is not acceptable to such evil-doers, then according to the principle kantakenaiva kantakam (that is, “take out a thorn by a thorn”), it becomes necessary to take out by a needle, that is by an iron thorn, if not by an ordinary thorn, that thorn which will not come out with poultices, because under any circumstances, punishing evil-doers in the interests of general welfare, as was done by the Blessed Lord, is the first duty of saints from the point of view of Ethics.’ And the responsibility for the suffering that is caused thereby does not lie with the person who puts the evil out; it lies with the evil-doers. The Lord Himself says, Tilak recalls, ‘I give to them reward in the same manner and to the same extent that they worship Me.’ ‘In the same way,’ he says, ‘no one calls the Judge, who directs the execution of a criminal, the enemy of the criminal…’

    Could the variance between two interpretations be greater than is the case between the Lokmanya’s Gita Rahasya and Gandhiji’s Anashakti Yoga? Yet both constructions are by great and devout Hindus. Are ordinary Hindus nailed to Gandhiji’s rendering? After all, at the end of the Gita, Arjuna does not go off to sit at one of our non-violent dharnas. He goes into blood-soaked battle.

    The comforting mistake

    The mistake is to assume that the sterner stance is something that has been fomented by this individual or that —in the case of Hindutva, by, say, Veer Savarkar — or by one organisation, say the RSS or the VHP. That is just a comforting mistake — the inference is that once that individual is calumnised, once that organisation is neutralised, ‘the problem’ will be over. Large numbers do not gravitate to this interpretation rather than that merely because an individual or an organisation has advanced it — after all, the interpretations that are available on the shelf far outnumber even the scriptures. They gravitate to the harsher rendering because events convince them that it alone will save them.

    It is this tectonic shift in the Hindu mind, a shift that has been going on for 200 years, which is being underestimated. The thousand years of domination and savage oppression by rulers of other religions; domination and oppression which were exercised in the name of and for the glory of and for establishing the sway of those religions, evinced a variety of responses from the Hindus. Armed resistance for centuries… When at last such resistance became totally impossible, the revival of bhakti by the great poets… When public performance even of bhakti became perilous, sullen withdrawal, preserving the tradition by oneself, almost in secrecy: I remember being told in South Goa how families sustained their devotion by painting images of our gods and goddesses inside the tin trunks in which sheets and clothing were kept. The example of individuals: recall how the utter simplicity and manifest aura of Ramakrishna Paramhamsa negated the efforts of the missionaries, how his devotion to the image of the Goddess at Dakshineshwar restored respectability to the idolatry that the missionaries and others were traducing… The magnetism of Sri Aurobindo and Ramana Maharshi… Gandhiji’s incontestable greatness and the fact that it was so evidently rooted in his devotion to our religion…

    Each of these stemmed much. But over the last 200 years the feeling has also swelled that, invaluable as these responses have been, they have not been enough. They did not prevent the country from being taken over. They did not shield the people from the cruelty of alien rulers. They did not prevent the conversion of millions. They did not prevent the tradition from being calumnised and being thrown on the defensive. They did not in the end save the country from being partitioned — from being partitioned in the name of religion…

    There is a real vice here. The three great religions that originated in Palestine and Saudi Arabia — Judaism, Christianity and Islam — have been exclusivist — each has insisted that it alone is true — and aggressive. The Indic religions — Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism — have been inclusive, they have been indulgent of the claims of others. But how may the latter sort survive when it is confronted by one that aims at power, acquires it, and then uses it to enlarge its dominion? How is the Indic sort to survive when the other uses the sword as well as other resources — organised missionaries, money, the state — to proselytise and to convert? Nor is this question facing just the Hindus in India today. It is facing the adherents of Indic traditions wherever they are: look at the Hindus in Indonesia and Malaysia; look at the Buddhists in Tibet, now in Thailand too. It is because of this vice, and the realisation born from what had already come to pass that Swami Vivekananda, for instance, while asking the Hindus to retain their Hindu soul, exhorted them to acquire an ‘Islamic body’.

    Instigating factors

    We can be certain that his counsel will prevail, our secularists notwithstanding,

    • The more aggressively the other religions proselytise — look at the fervour with which today the Tablighi Jamaat goes about conversion; look at the organised way in which the missionaries ‘harvest’ our souls;

    • The more they use money to increase the harvest — whether it is Saudi money or that of Rome and the American churches;

    • The more any of them uses violence to enlarge its sway;

    • The more any of them allies itself with and uses the state — whether that of Saudi Arabia or Pakistan — for aggrandisement.

    Nor is what others do from outside the only determinant. From within India, three factors in particular will make the acquiring of that Islamic body all the more certain:

    • The more biased ‘secularist’ discourse is;

    • The more political parties use non-Hindus — Muslims, for instance — as vote banks and the more that non-Hindu group comes to act as one — ‘strategic voting’ and all;

    • The more the state of India bends to these exclusivist, aggressive traditions.

    It has almost become routine to slight Hindu sentiments — our smart-set do not even notice the slights they administer. Recall the jibe of decades: ‘the Hindu rate of growth’. When, because of those very socialist policies that their kind had swallowed and imposed on the country, our growth was held down to 3-4 per cent, it was dubbed — with much glee — as ‘the Hindu rate of growth’. Today, we are growing at 9 per cent. And, if you are to believe the nonsense in Sachar’s report, the minorities are not growing at all. So, who is responsible for this higher rate of growth? The Hindus! How come no one calls this higher rate of growth ‘the Hindu rate of growth’? Simple: dubbing the low rate as the Hindu one established you to be secular; not acknowledging the higher one as the Hindu rate establishes you to be secular!

    Or M.F. Husain. He is a kindly man, and a prodigiously productive artist. There is no warrant at all for disrupting all his exhibitions. I am on the point of sensibilities. His depictions of Hindu goddesses have been in the news: he has painted them in less than skimpy attire. I particularly remember one in which Sita is riding Hanuman’s stiffened tail — of course, she is scarcely clad, but that is the least of it: you need no imagination at all to see what she is rubbing up against that stiffened tail. Well, in the case of an artist, that is just inspiration, say the secularists. OK. The question that arises then is: How come in the seventy-five years Husain has been painting, he has not once felt inspired, not once, to paint the face of the Prophet? It doesn’t have to be in the style in which he has painted the Hindu goddesses. Why not the most beautiful, the most radiant and luminous face that he can imagine? How come he has never felt inspired to paint women revered in Islam, or in his own family, in the same style as the one that propelled his inspiration in regard to Hindu goddesses?

    ‘In painting the goddesses, he was just honouring them,’ a secular intellectual remarked at a discussion the other day. ‘It was his way of honouring them.’ Fine. It is indeed the case that one of the best ways we can honour someone is to put the one skill we have at the service of the person or deity. But how come that Husain never but never thought of honouring the Prophet by using the same priceless skill, that one ‘talent which is death to hide’?

    ‘Has Mr Shourie ever visited Khajuraho?,’ a member of the audience asked, the implication being that, as Hindu sculptors had depicted personages naked, what was wrong with Husain depicting the goddesses in the same style. Fine again. But surely, it is no one’s case that the ‘Khajuraho style’ must be confined to Hindu icons. Why has the artist, so skilled in deploying the Khajuraho motifs, never used them for icons of Islam? The reason why an artist desists from depicting the Prophet’s face is none of these convoluted disquisitions on style.

    The reason is simplicity itself: he knows he will be thrashed, and his hands smashed.

    Exactly the same holds for politics. How come no one objects when for years a Muslim politician keeps publishing maps of constituencies in which Muslims as Muslims can determine the outcome, and exhorting them to do so? When, not just an individual politician but entire political parties — from the Congress to the Left parties — stir Muslims up as a vote bank. When Muslims start behaving like a vote bank, you can be certain that someone will get the idea that Hindus too should be welded into a vote bank, and eventually they will get welded into one. Why is stoking Muslims ‘secular’ and stoking Hindus ‘communal’?

    And yet perverted discourse, even the stratagems of political parties, are but preparation: they prepare the ground for capitulation by the state to groups that are aggressive. And in this the real lunacy is about to be launched, and, with that, the real reaction.

  42. billo says:

    Dastagir, I don’t want to sound confrontational, but when you say “This is not a critique.. but honestly, Hinduism and Humanism are incompatible” don’t you see that , too, is just ignorance? In that respect, you are very much like Kali !

    Don’t judge Hindus by the actions of some (you would want the same principle applied to muslims, right?)

    yes, the RSS type of fascism has no future, but nore does radical Islam. Extremism -whether by jews, muslims, christians or hindus is deplorable. And *part* of that extremism is thinking that the other is not quite human.

    As far as everyone being ‘muslims’ I think Raza would help me out here: the haqiqah is one, but the shariah are many.

  43. Dastagir says:

    Billo : You are right. Do not judge Islam at the bar of muslim behavior. I also wrote “Hinduism and Humanism are incompatible”. why the difference in styling… though it means the same. Murder and mob-violence are committed in the name of religion (X or Y… wherever it is stronger… and there is a victim, available to victimise). In other words, sadism is sold as religion today. Such elements have risen to take control of leadership among some Muslim communities (for various reasons.. freedom fighters of the Reagan years become terrorists under Bush Junior !.. Muslim Leadership.. sorry to say.. does not represent Muslims. They are picked and hoisted by Uncle Sam ! Muslims won elections in Algeria.. but.. ! Thackerey / Modi can win elections and come into power… Advani /BJP can conduct genocides and come to power. but Algerian fundamentalists [no matter how bad] cannot. This contradiction breeds hatred. We have leaders in Muslim community, who do not represent their populace. That contradiction is tearing the whole fabric apart.. ). I hate the bigoted Muslims. There are Hindus who hate RSS too and understand the dangers they pose…. but…

    In none of the Muslim societies, fascists have reached the echelons of power. In theocratic Pakistan, religious parties always polled <5% of the votes… whereas in secular / humane/ cultured India., BJP grabbed power in the Centre…and presently rules 6 major states.. (Rajasthan, MP, Karanataka, Gujarat, Uttarakhand, Himachal) ! That is the difference in the level of threat perception. Muslim fanatics (no matter how bad), are not in Government. However RSS (BJP i.e.) has come to power..

    Though all fundamentalism is bad, Muslims do not have an organisation to match the RSS hate-factory (which is basically a criminal gang,… Un-Registered… which does not pay 1 rupee in tax). It commits crime (Mob Violence) from the platform of “religion” ! Its masterminds are protected by State Security Apparatus (killers protected by tax-payers money, i.e.). RSS cannot survive for 1 day.. on its own. Hatred for Muslims is its oxygen. It plans and executes riots with precision.

    There is a difference between some who is bad… and some who is bad… plus has the means to turn his dirty dreams into reality. One is a imaginary threat… the other is real. The Gujarat Monster and the Gujarat Laboratory is Real. How can it be wished away. I see Nazi Germany in Gujarat. Even Hitler had won electnions. If Algerian Fundamentalists (who won elections) were bad… so is BJP and Narendra Modi… but then… the difference in treatment…

    Good people (silent majority) closes its doors. If a hindu mob of 5000 is out to burn muslims; the good hindu closes his doors… and imagines.. well.. that was their destiny… and finds succor in manufactured history… Muslims destroyed temples.. abducted women (lies manufactured by RSS… early proponents of manufactured history were British Historians.. divide and rule policy.. to stabilise British rule in India).

    Secularists must become physically strong to hold the hand of RSS. When Hindu Mobs attack muslims and loot their property (Infact there is an economic angle to the communal riots… remember Manto’s story… A whole bazaar was burnt.. except one shop.. that sold “Building Materials !”). Competitors are eliminated during “riots”., Hindus have to come out and fight the RSS… to protect their Muslim Neighbours. Same goes for Muslims… when a Muslim mob attacks Hindus… the SANE Muslims must fight the bigot… to protect his Hindu Neighbour.

    Though this may sound romantic idealism… there is great weight in this logic. It is not an argument. It is POLITY. Sound Polity.

    Hindus have to save Hinduism from hateful Hindutva and its proponents (VHP/RSS/Hindu Maha Sabha /Bajrang Dal / Durga Vahini/ etc/ etc/… the hydra-headed monster of hatred, i.e.). Muslims have to save Islam from the fundamentalist fringe element. Muslim fundamentalist has not captured POLITICAL POWER so far., anywhere in the world… whereas BJP came to power in India. THAT is the difference.. the DANGER… i attempt to highlight.

    RSS will destroy India. I say that daily… and i believe in that.

  44. Nilanjana Som says:

    To All Muslims

    1. India is originally a Hindu country. It is here that out religion is born! Right? Now imagine the feelings of Hindus when their country was divided in the name of religion by Muslims, whom we have allowed to live. Yes Congress is to be blamed and that is why we have started supporting BJP. We have no problem with Parsis, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jain, Jew…. Yes we have problem with Missionaries who are trying to convert. Will you tolerate this kind of conversion.
    2. Someone said Godhra main Hindu-o ne train mein aag lagaya. And some said it is yet to be proved that 9/11 was done by Muslim terrorists. May I ask why is it Muslims negate any media report against them and accepts anything against non-Muslims?
    3. Islam being great. Fine. What about other religion? Dr. Zakir Naik in a recent lecture said Prophet was Kalki or Kalki is Prophet. Kaliki is the last avtar of Krishna with whom kalyug will end. Like ur Qayamat. Will you tolerate if I misinform people about Qayamat, that day for which every Muslim is getting ready? Then how dare a Muslim insult my religion and turn around the facts written in Puranas? If ur Quran is important to you, our religious books too are important to us.
    4. Someone said that Kahmiri Hindus are brothers to Kahmiri Muslims. What were you doing when they were getting killed?
    5. Why should this land get divided over religion? Especially the one that is not born here? Will u tolerate the same in Mecca?
    6. All the countries with Muslims have separatist problem. You may say and have said, it is spread by the WEST. Can you explain the situations in Iran, Iraq, Bangladesh, pakistan, Turkey, Phillipines… All these countries have seen a century of Islamic rule.
    7. If after 800 years of Islamic rule in India, Muslims have not progressed why blame Hindus? Even the North Indians have not progressed – Hindu, Muslim, Sikh…. I am a Bengalee that has seen the worst of ku-prathas in the society but because we wanted to change we have. At least 70 per cent of us. Because of people like Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Vidya Sagar, Swami Vivekananda, Tagore…. Name one such Muslim reformist.
    Was independence promised to Kashmiri Muslims alone? Was it not promised to the Pundits? But in the past twenty years, Pundits have been removed from the Kashmir valley and now they want independence.
    If a Muslim can say Yes Muslims can be detached from Mecca and Medina, will we Hindus think of getting detached from another land. Else not an inch. We have already given away our country in the name of religion, we cannot anymore. How many things should we forget? You remember Godhra and Babri Masjid, but what about the religious persecution we have faced since the coming of Islam and face till today. How many thing should we forget. If you want us to forget then please you need to stop these attacks.
    Entire India prayed for Haneef’s return, but what did Kafeel achieve? Could he have gone to London had we followed a discriminatory policy against Muslims. Why do u forget the respect BJP had for Kalam sahab. Today Muslims in Gujrat themselves want to get over Godhra, please check their interview to CNN-IBN… and today they are making money along with the Hindus and Jains. Yes Kafeel has forced people to distrust Muslims, no one has forced him to carry that attack.
    I am learning Urdu from a Maulana who was telling me that Muslims cannot pray to anyone else but Allah because, it is He alone who has created everything so only He is worthy of our pray. Point taken.
    We Hindus say,snce He has created everything, He is there in all the aspects and hence everything that has Him is worth praying. Why can a Muslim not accept this and point to us saying those idol-worshippers. You live with ur faith, we live with ours. Why point? It is with this faith that we have built a nation centuries before Islam was born. Why believe that an all Muslim nation will solve the problem. Why not instead look into ur own community and work for its betterment. I hate Congres that constantly plays the appeasement card to lure Muslims. 40 hectre kland dene se kya ho jata. Amarnath yatra is like haj for us…. u want to say we do not need facilities? And it was a temporary trasfer. Yasin said, 10,000 Indians (I am sure he meant Hindus only) could be settled there. What if yes? Kashmir is part of India. And this happened after twenty years, so I do not see why should Roy think that India has failed? U know what these separatists have done, they enraged the Kashmiri Muslims in the name of religion and then tactfully used it for their separatist movement. And who are these separatists? Ex-terrorists… Please google their names and read their anti-Indian slogans and acceptance of crime in youtube. If u say they are Bhagat Singh then let me remind u, that those people fought againsts foreign rule, r u saying u, an Indian Muslim, I an Indian Hindu foreigners in Kashmir. Well if yes, then it is only the separatists view, who all happen to be Muslims
    By the way, I do not believe in any God. But I am proud to be a Hindu. And will not give away Kashmir at any cost. Thats a promise as an Indian.

  45. Nilanjana Som says:

    RSS and MNS are bad…. But BJP? Dastgir… r u not forgetting, Nuclear tests? R u not forgetting BJP got us thru sanctions. U r saying BJP is a fundamentalist and u muslims do not have fundamentalist party. so what if they are not in power – u r spreading ur message thru terrorism. Godhra, Mumbai Blast, Mumbai train blast, Jaipur-Ajmer, Hyderabad, Lucknow, Bangalore, Gujarat……. and u said british used divide and rule. yes they did. but what about the temples grazed in kashmir? what about buddha statutes? what about the books mentioning aurangzeb and his exploits against hindus? he offered everyone to convert – guru gobind singh, ajit singh of jodhpur, shivaji…. if there is a muslim league it is fine, but a bjp is not. yes there are hindu fundamentalists but theyr are a reaction to muslim terrorism….

  46. Dastagir says:

    Nilanjana Som : Though at first, i did not want to reply to your post, cuz then it would become a “Tark-Vitark”.. (argument-counter-argument)., serving no purpose. You are an educated person and must make the effort to find the truth… if you are inclined to know, i.e. You must have the intellectual stature to accept truth… and you must make the effort to know the truth. No one can walk for you… nor is that the intent. I am not here to teach you.. or convert you. You will find your own lights, i hope.

    Ramakrishna Paramahansa had said : “Serve the God in Man” see the light of God (Allah / Eashwar/ Yehuda / whatever) that shines in the eyes of His Creation. Once you accept that base.. how can you burn kids.. rape women.. kill people.. (under the banner of Hindutva ! First 50 innocent people [Hindus] are burnt in a train – followed by 5000 innocent people [Muslims] in one of the worst genocides in History – followed by elections leading to victory ! (Confirmation by Public… that Muslims deserved to be burnt ! A confirmation of hatred executed thru the means of mob violence, i.e. ). This is anarchy.

    By the way, during the course of history, Gandhi, Bhagat Singh, Hasrat Mohani, Mahmood-ul-hasan, Maulana Mohammed ALi Jauhar… and the list is long.. were all called/ labelled “Terrorists” (and even “Anarchists”).

    1. India is originally a Hindu country. Who is a Hindu. The root word is “Hind” (Resident of India) which is an Arabic word. We are all HindI’s…… Its a fact… However., Hindu (after the advent of the British) became something that was “Not Muslim”. They clubbed the whole lump… and called it Hindu.

    During the Round Table Conference in London in the 1930s, Iqbal had accepted all the demands made by the Congress as regards the Hindu-Muslim Question. Gandhiji then said : “But i do not have the authotiry to ink the agreement”. Iqbal in the presence of that freat soul… Mrs. Sarojini Naidu then said :”please send a telegram.. and get approval from your committee”… to which Gandhiji replied : “I am afraid the Congress will NOT accept me as their Advocate / Authorised Signatory”…. If that was the case, in what capacity did he enter into the discussion then ? Who was the boss then ? Was it Sardar Patel ?? Cuz he brought in funds from financiers…. and their interests were paramount ! (Dalmia / Birlas / Bajaj… who got their pound of flesh (ROI) after independence).

    Gandhiji requested the Delegation of Muslims : “Please condemn reservation for Harijans.. speak against it”. The Muslim delegation said : “how can we do that. we are asking for guarantees for ourselves.. how can we say that Harijans/Dalits should be denied theirs”… this was to sow seeds of Muslim-Dalit hatred… (to be used againt Muslims later, i.e. Pure Manu-vaad in action).

    Just to kill time – and wait for the right moment – to unleash civil commotion (anarchy) – leading to partition of India ! I repeat: Partition happened because Congress wanted it… Congress desired it since 1915… because it did not want to share power with Muslims… period. Gandhi ji preferred partition of India over Cabinet Mission Plan. Jinnah wanted a Federal Structure… (Basically, Sarkaria Commission, i.e.). Gandhi did not have the vision… they wanted power.. in few hands… and did not want to share it. Naturally, it led to separatist views. Nobody is an angel here.. but i am stating the facts. Please spend 6 months to 1 year.. and read 500 books on the matter., before you form SOUND opinion (not cheap jingoism).

    Hindus have no problem with Parsis, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jain, Jews because they are miniscule. Hindu-Muslim question is different. A competition is always held between substantial numbers.

    2. Godhra main aag RSS ne lagaayi thee. The truth of 9/11 will also come out.. sooner than later.. just like JFK assasination… and Armstrong’s landing on the moon ! Wait… and history will spill the truths. Shocking truths. Hindus were caught making bombs in Nanded / Parbhani / recently in Kanpur.. fake beards.. green kurtas.. pyjamas… skull caps.. found with RSS workers. Why was it not front page news ? Hayn !!

    3. Kalki is referred to Prophet. Yes… but who is following the scriptures here ? Babu Bajrangi is following the Puranas and Gita ? He is deriving his spiritual strength from Gita ? What happened in Gujarat 2002 (and 5000 riots b4 that) the Dharma Yuddh… Golwalkar was caught with arms and bombs … and allowed safe exit by GB Pant (in Meerut 1950s.. .that is the beauty of RSS – the largest and most sinister terrorist factory in the world).

    3. Hindus must hold their religious books in honor.. .and we respect them too. I have the highest regard for literature.. as long as it is literature. There is a difference between divinely revealed books and Literature. Shakespeare is literature. Bible is a relevation. Ramayana is Literature. The most popular version being written by Muslims !

    4. Kashmiri Pundits were lifted by Jagmohan (The RSS guy.. who eariler was Indira Gandhi’s favourite bureaucrat ! Remember the Turkan Gate Delhi demolition where hundreds of poor muslims were uprooted ! Their only fault : they were Muslims.. and poor.. and were spoiling the view… to the red fort !).

    5. This land (United India) got divided over religion when Congress refused to SHARE the spoils (POWER). As simple as that.

    6. All the countries with Muslims have separatist problem… why.. because they are fake creations. They were all created by Britain / super-power of the day… post WW-I or WW-II. Geographically there should be 5 major muslim countries. They ensured 53 came into existence… for geo-political reasons. You can play with 53 with ease.. rather than 5. Got my point !

    7. If after 800 years of Islamic rule in India, Muslims have not progressed why blame Hindus? After 700 (not 800) years of rule by kings with Muslim names… India was still left a Hindu majority (by hindu.. i mean.. those who are not muslim). That also means they were secular(cuz muslims remained poor throughtout.) FYI : Aurangzeb provided grants to 32,000 temples against 6000 mosques… Aurangzeb provided funds to 11,355 Hindu Religious Institution v/s. 5,024 to Muslim Religious Institutions. Some bigot.

    Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Vidya Sagar, Vivekananda, Tagore catholicised Hinduism..

    Name one such Muslim reformist… would need pages.. There is a long list of Sufi Saints.. followed by contemporary writers like Syed Amir Ali, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, Ali Imam, Iqbal, Shah Suleiman, Fazl-e-Husain, Syed Mahmud, Maulana Mahmood-ul-Hasan (contemporary India’s 1st freedom fighter), Habeebur rehman khan sherwani, Abulkalam Azad… all these people tried to fine-tune.. bring reform.. awareness.. within their own community. Did you care to read about these people… ‘Twas not necessary.. Muslims are presumed to be fools.. chuggi-beards.. skull cap.. Stereotype blinds the eye.. and the brain !

    Independence promised to all incl. Kashmiri Muslims (lifted by Jagmohan.. who planned a pogrom. he had a liftime experience in doing that dirty job).

    Why do Hindus feel bad when their fellow-brethren are ill-treated in Malaysia. It is because an un-seen chord runs… They may never meet each other.. there is no motive.. it is an emotional chord.. That must be understood when you research about Pan Islam. It doesnt exist.. it doesnt work out… yet it exists.. on a mental plane..

    We will remember Godhra and Babri Masjid for the next 1000 years… cuz Muslims in their history of 1400+ yrs., never burnt people alive. Even trees are prohibited to be BURNT in Islam. That fine credit for such act is rightly deserved by others.. civilised.. cultured groups.

    Muslims in Gujrat have every right over Gujarat… and deserve a share in the spoils. Their survival is not at the mercy/favour of Babu Bajrangi. These are civilisational issues…

    If you are learning Urdu, its your choice. I know Hindi and Sanskrit, better than many Hindus.. that was my choice.. and preference.. and craving.. .So its not a favor done unto anyone.

    Why can a Muslim say : You live with ur faith, we live with ours… My reply : Quran: “La Iqra`haa fid-deen” (Dont create disturbances over religious differnces)… and again : “Wa deeni wa deenakum” (To you your religion, and to them, theirs !).

    Appeasement : Well the condition of the “appeased” muslims is there for all to see. Go and pick up any random sample.. anywhere in India.. to know the truth. Take pains to find the truth. Dont go by RSS lies.

    Amarnath yatra is like haj for us.. FINE… It will go on as usual. Muslims will provide (as they have been providing for ages) for their Hindu brothers.. .easen their Yatra. 1/2 million Muslims go to Ajmer. The Govt. of Rajasthan oversees their pilgrimage. There is no “Board” that oversees Ajmer Urs… It is the JOB of the State Govt. which it must do.. No favors done here.

    Haj Subsidy : Must be abolished asap. It actually perpetuates a monopoly cover for Air India. Once abolished, competitors would enter the fray.. and the air-fare would naturally come down. So it is giving from one hand., and taking from the other.

    Roy said the plain truth… cuz the danger lines were crossed. When the lines of decency are crossed … then “internal matter” becomes “external”. If there is a fight in your house.. and it is within limits.. nobody cares.. but if it crosses the red-line… neighbours knock the door to ask : “Whats going on”. Then the internal becomes external.

    YES : India has failed.. cuz it could not conquer the hearts and minds after having 60 years of physical possession. The money spent on arms.. had it been diverted to development.. Kashmir would have been the Switzerland of the East.. (and a net earner of billions of tourist income !). That opportunity was lost because of “Hatred”… too-too– main-main.

    Bhagat Singh : State terrorism produces individual terrorists… who after a few decades are elavated to “freedom fighters” and heroes. Strange is the hand of time and history.

    Whether you believe in God/Allah/Eashwar/ or not, that is your personal choice. It neither adds to the argument nor discounts it. We discuss on issues based on FACTS and not manufactured Fiction !

    I am proud to be a HindI., and will do my best to keep it safe and beautiful. Add to its beauty.. and stop those who want to turn it into a heap of rubble.

    BJP is the mask. BJP is doing the dirty work that was done by the British earlier. Divide and Rule… Using this formula, they stayed for a century. Adopting this formula, BJP came to power… and now rules 6 states. It may well, rule India.. but it will NOT enrich India. I am sure about that. Hatred in the end, is a worst destroyer than nuclear bombs. I dont want India to go the way of Afghanistan….. but i am afraid…. if the majority want it.. no one can save it.

  47. billo says:

    Dastagir, I’m sorry, but I still don’t understand what you mean by ‘Hinduism and humanism’ are incompatible.

    As to your other point, I think it’s a valid one. In fact, I think the word ‘terror’ was first used for state terror and , as Focuault says in his ’76 lectures, , the key point about Nazism was that it was “state racism”.

    What’s tearing the fabric apart is a difficult question and I’d only suggest caution here..it’s probably a conjunction of a lot of factors-one of which has been , as you rightly say, american support for dictators. But I approach things slightly differently to you (perhaps): I think we need to look at ourselves and ask why we’ve become so intolerant and why radicalism and extremism are gaining ground (Gellner’s Muslim society’ is insightful here). Or,a s the allama said: we’ve been sleeping for 500 years.

    again, i agree with your main point about state power but one cannot forget East Timor, Sudan (Darfur), Iraq: the violence that the state has perpetrated. More to the point: in Pakistan it has been the military-mullah nexus that has helped create the situation we presently see and so there IS state involvement. Same goes for the Taliban in Afghanistan.

    no, I think a more balanced view would lead one to admit that there has been a growth in fundamentalism (from Iran to Algeria to Pakistan and Saudi) since ’79-and I don’t think it’s just about american power. And it’s not clear-to me at least- that it will continue to be a fringe element.

    This has been matched by the growth of Hindu fundamentalism , of course. But it’s ridiculous to suggest (Nilanjana) the latter is a reaction to the former or that the ‘muslim league’ is in any way parallel to the BJP .

    One last point. Pakistan is not a theocratic state and never has been.

  48. kali says:

    Well said at least they do not delete your comment like they delete mine–but put Dagstir’s irrational comments no matter how absurd and illogical—but they have deleted my comments. How is this blog progressive, when there is a tendency to delete comments? The gist of the comments was that Muslims should not blame others for the fact that their culture holds them down. I am supposed to be a part of RSS for telling Muslims–watch it–because when Hindus are pushed too far then the consequences can be unpleasant….

  49. kali says:

    dagstir–“In none of the Muslim societies, fascists have reached the echelons of power.”
    MWAHAhAAAAhAAAhAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  50. kali says:

    The leftist intellectuals like to blame the Bristish–but the British for all of thier exploitation reopened contact with the West that was closed after the coming of Islam. Why else did people have to rediscover India when the ancient Greeks often travelled there before Islam?
    Who looted India more
    By M.S.N. Menon

    The British, say the ignorant Hindus. And they are not a few in this country. The talk is always of colonial exploitation. Of Jalianwala massacre.

    It is also said that the British transferred huge amounts to Britain and that they tried to maximise revenue collections in India.

    What are the facts? Prof. Dharma Kumar of the Delhi School of Economics refutes the charges. He writes: “This is very far from the truth and may indeed be more true of the Mughal rulers, if one takes the texts of the period and the work of the Aligarh school of historians seriously.”

    And he goes on to quote the first volume of the Cambridge Economic History of India, which says that ?a tiny ruling group consisting of the Mughal Emperor and 8,000 or so nobles (of a total population of 100 million ) actually collected over half to one-third of the GNP as revenue.” According to the US economist Raymond Goldsmith, the income appropriated by the top group in Mughal India was the highest known to man. The only exceptions were the Egyptian and Mesopotamian theocracies.

    True, the British tried to collect as much as they could, but they were a people used to low taxation. In fact, in the first budget speech after the 1857 Mutiny, it was said that Hindu taxation law was generous to the rulers. Prof. Kumar says that the British might have collected 7 per cent of Gross National Product (GNP) in 1872-73 as revenue. During the World War II, the revenue collection was by no means high, he says. Thus during the World War II, it was not more than 12 per cent. Tax revenue fluctuated between 6 per cent and 7 per cent of the national income between 1900 to 1947.

    In the last year of British rule, land revenue constituted. less than one-tenth of the total tax revenue. The land revenue probably did not exceed 5 percent of gross agricultural output in the 20th century for the country as a whole. This is in contrast to the Mughal period, when land tax was the highest. In fact, Britain was reluctant to impose high land tax after the rise of nationalism.

    Prof. Dharma Kumar writes: “Indian historians are too often obsessed with the exploitative nature of colonialism and generations of students have learnt from them. It is true the British exploited, but they were also building a new modern India.”

    As against this, after imposing their rule over India for over seven centuries, the Muslim rulers remained as foreign dynasties and refused to identify themselves with India. In these seven centuries, they did not build one great school or hospital. All they did was to build palaces and gardens for their enjoyment, tombs to perpetuate their memory and forts for their security. In fact, India continued to be a Dar-ul-Harb for the Muslim rulers, whereas India was the jewel of the British crown.

    In the long period of the Muslim advent, the Muslim invaders and rulers did not spare one Hindu or Buddhist temple or Vihara. Everything was looted for gold and precious stones. The destruction was complete in the north. The number of temples destroyed by Aurangzeb alone is estimated to five, if not six, digits, according to his own court chroniclers. There was nothing left for the British to loot in India. In any case, they never indulged in looting the temples.

    India was the richest country in the world till the advent of Islam. All the great diamonds belonged to India. India knew mining and processing of diamonds. The Mughals had two underground rooms of a capacity of 150,000 cu. ft., each packed with precious metals, diamonds and stones.

    Mohd. bin Qasim robbed Sind of 630 million dirhams in the 11th century. Mahmud Ghazni raided India 17 times to loot temples and palaces. The sultanates sent looting expeditions to the south. On the invasion of Ghazni, Nehru writes: “From Thaneswar he took away, it is said, 200,000 captives (for sale) and vast wealth. But it was at Somnath that he got the most, for this was one of the great temples and the offerings of centuries had accumulated there.”

    The Muslim armies had plans to loot the rich cathedrals of Europe, but they were routed by the French. Similar ambitions to loot China were frustrated by the Mongols who devastated the Muslim empire and destroyed the Caliphate.

    Loot was the first objective of every Muslim invader, not conversion. This is sanctioned by Islam. It says : “Eat what you have taken as booty. It is lawful and good.” (The Spoils 65) ( As against this , the Isha Upanishad says: “Enjoy what God has given the. Covet not that which belongs to another. “ 😉

    The legitimisation of plunder by Islam was what made the Islamic advent in the world so gory.

    But our Indian “comrades” are ever ready to distort history. Prof. Prabhat Patnaik of JNU for example writes: “Every act of the British… was meant to serve rapacious colonial interests. ” No sensible thinker can pen such nonsense. Was the creation of the Asiatic Society also a “rapacious colonial” enterprise? More men of eminence are on record in British history, who opposed colonialism.

    Now if you want proof from a real source here is one taken from Will Durant’s Story of Civilization in 12 Volumes(taken from our oriental heritage)

    Even Will Durant the eminent American historian who wrote the story of Civilization in 12 volumes says the Islamic conquest of India was the bloodiest in world history– And in this age of PC we sadly not only do not have historians of the caliber of Will Durant, but they are also unable to write history as a spectator as he does. A great writer and thousands of leagues ahead of Arundhati when it comes to intellect and logical thinking:
    He writes:
    The Mohammedan Conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precarious thing, whose delicate complex of order and liberty, culture and peace may at any time be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within. The Hindus had allowed their strength to be wasted in internal division and war; they had adopted religions like Buddhims and Jainism, which unnerved them for the tasks of life; they had failed to organize their forces for the protection of their frontiers and their capitals, their wealth and their freedom, from the hordes of Scythians, Huns, Afghans and Turks hovering about India’s boundaries and waiting for national weakness to let them in. For four hundred years (600-1000 A.D.) India invited Conquest; and at last it came.

    The first Moslem attack was a passing raid upon Multan, in the western Punjab (664 A.D.). Similar raids occurred at the convenience of the invaders during the next
    three centuries, with the result that the Moslems established themselves in the Indus valley about the same time that their Arab co-religionists in the West were fighting the battle of Tours (732 A.D.) for the mastery of Europe. But the real Moslem conquest of India did not come till the turn of the first millenium after Christ.

    In the year 997 a Turkish chieftan by the name of Mahmud became of Sultan of the little state of Ghazni, in eastern Afghanistan. Mahmud knew that his throne was
    young and poor, and saw that India, across the border, was old and rich; the conclusion was obvious. Pretending a holy zeal for destroying Hindu idolatry, he swept across the frontier with a force inspired by a pious aspiration for booty. He met the unprepared Hindus at Bhimnagar, slaughtered them, pillaged their cities, destroyed their temples, and carried away the accumulated treasures of centuries. . . . . Each winter Mahmud descended into India, filled his treasure chest with spoils, and amused his men with full freedom to pillage and kill; each spring he returned to his capital richer than before. At Mathura (on the Jumna) he took from the temple its statues of gold encrusted with precious stones, and emptied its coffers of a vast quantity of gold, silver and jewelry; he expressed his admiration for the architecture of the great shrine, judged that its duplication would cost one hundred million dinars and the labor of 200 years, and then ordered it to be soaked with naptha and burnt to the ground. Six years later he sacked another opulent city of northern India, Somnath, killed all its 50,000 inhabitants, and dragged its wealth to Ghazni. In the end he became, perhaps, the richest king that history has ever known. Sometimes he spared the population of the ravaged cities, and took them home to be sold as slaves; but so great was the number of such captives that after some years no one could be found to offer more than a few shillings for a slave. Before every important engagement Mahmud knelt in prayer, and asked the blessing of God upon his arms. He reigned for a third of a century; and when he died, full of years and honors, Moslem historians ranked him as the greatest monarch of his time and one of the greatest sovereigns of any age.

    Seeing the canonization that success had brought to this magnificent thief, other Moslem rulers profited by his example, though none succeeded in bettering his instruction. In 1186 the Ghuri, a Turkish tribe of Afghanistan, invaded India, captured the city of Delhi, destroyed its temples, confiscated its wealth, and settled down in its palaces to establish the Sultanate of Delhi – – – an alien despotism fastened upon northern India for three centuries, and checked only by assassination and revolt. The first of these bloody sultans, Kutb-d Din Aibak, was a normal specimen of his kind – fanatical, ferocious and merciless. His gifts, as the Mohammedan historian tells us, “were bestowed by hundreds of thousands, and his slaughters likewise were by hundreds of thousands.” [citation omitted.] In one victory of this warrior . . . . “50,000 men came under the collar of slavery, and the plain became black as pitch with Hindus.” [citation omitted]. Another sultan, Balban, punished rebels and brigands by casting them under the feet of elephants, or removing their skins, stuffing these with straw and hanging them from the gates of Delhi.

    Alberuni writes of the Tuikic Manhud–who was a slave king and a homosexual at that–this is also well documented by historians—We know of the Islamic legacy in India through the accounts the accounts of the historians of the Muslim court who kept good records and were themselves Muslim:
    Quoting the Iranian Ableruni
    ‘Mahmud utterly ruined the prosperity of the country and performed those wonderful exploits by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions…their scattered remains cherish, of course, the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims. This is the reason too why Hindu sciences have retired far away from parts of the country conquered by us and have fled to places, which our hand cannot yet reach, to Kashmir, Benaras and other places.”

    LOOK AT THE ALBERUNI QUOTE. THIS IS AN ENLIGHTENED IRANIAN WRITING-HE WROTE A BOOK CALLED INDICA AND WAS A SCHOLAR OF SANSKRIT. HE WILL EXPLAIN TO YOU WHAT KASHMIR MEANS TO HINDUS- WE ARE REMNANTS OF THOSE ATOMS OF DUST AND ARE WILLING TO DIE TO PROTECT OUR MOTHERLAND.

  51. kali says:

    “If you are learning Urdu, its your choice. I know Hindi and Sanskrit, better than many Hindus.. that was my choice.. and preference.. and craving.. .So its not a favor done unto anyone.”
    QUOTE BY DAGSTIR
    i SEE A PATHETIC LIAR HERE. tHAT IS WHY HE KNOWS SO MUCH ABOUT HINDUISM AND BUDDHISM. If you are going to be selective and delete my posts why do you allow him to say such nonsense? Is this why people do not like to debate with Muslims–because they try to shut you up or delete what you have to say? Do not erase my posts when you allow someone like this to utter such nonsense.

  52. kali says:

    Well said at least they do not delete your comment like they delete mine–but put Dagstir’s irrational comments no matter how absurd and illogical—but they have deleted my comments. How is this blog progressive, when there is a tendency to delete comments? The gist of the comments was that Muslims should not blame others for the fact that their culture holds them down. I am supposed to be a part of RSS for telling Muslims–watch it–because when Hindus are pushed too far then the consequences can be unpleasant….
    THIS COMMENT WAS TO BE UNDER nILANJANA AND I WAS COMMENDING HIM FOR IT. DO NOT CHANGE THE ORDER OF THE COMMENTS. Do not insert my comments where they do not belong. It is a response to NIlanjana not to billo.

  53. Shaheryar Ali says:

    @Kali
    You are a fascist. Debating with your kind is waste of time. I hope and Congress and CPI deals with your kind soon. You are just ignorant. India has no “Hindu” past or Unified Hindu civilization. Its a proven historical fact. No matter what ur fascist journalist turn pseudo historian say. Read Romila Thapar. India was never Hindu and what is “Hindu” , its still controversial. You guys are just racist who abuse great Hindu faith like Islamist abuse Islam.
    Dont parade ur ignorance further, its nauseating. India is a secular modern state made by Socialists. your communal fathers were licking the boots of British than.
    @Raza
    Ban him, this fascist hate mongerer and upper cast racist must not allowed to spread hate

  54. Indscribe says:

    Kali

    If you start looking at history in communal perspective then it is useless to discuss anything. Kings, rulers and chieftains are mostly kings first and Hindu or Muslim later.

    It is criminal to interpret history in this manner when lakhs of Hindus and Muslims gave their lives fighting the imperialist forces.

    Not just the early Muslim kings and many of the Ghulam, Khalji and Lodhi dynasty but reign of umpteen rulers like Zainul Abedin, Husain Sharqi and Alauddin Husain Shah, are glorious chapters of Indian history.

    If you overlook the contribution of every Muslim–from ruler to citizen, it is clear that you don’t want to listen or hear anything and have no interest in anything except wasting your and our time.

    Why don’t you enlighten the world with your theories and ideas on your own blog, rather than wasting your talent here. By the way, the part of Kashmir which we today have is not because of Godses and others of their ilk but lot of credit goes to a patriot Indian Muslim Brigadier Usman.

    It’s not like RSS, that claims high moral ground but never unfurls the Indian flag on its headquarter in Nagpur.

  55. RR says:

    Kali
    Your latest comment has been blocked. Despite your bravado and quest for truths you lack the courage to mention your name and are using a fake email ID.
    Your recent advice to Muslims to leave India and go to Pakistan or Bangladesh has been said above -You have also received undue space here and made your hate speech in full measure.
    thanks for the visits and much as I disagree with you, I respect your right to articulate opinions within civil, parliamentary limits.
    cheers

  56. kashkin says:

    Kali
    My friend, you definitely know how to make a mockery out of yourself and your beliefs. Remember the golden words “listen, ponder and then reflect”. It looks like you saw the word “kashmir being mentioned and then came all the plethora of words, meaningless and out of context. History cannot be described and interpret the way you want. The inclination towards interpreting history in subjective and personal preferences is always a receipe for disaster. I have seen plenty of evidence in your posts where the approach you seem to have adapted “I am right, and I will use history as a mean to support my theories and beliefs”…

    I guess it never occured to you that It was the people of Kashmir who wanted to go with Pakistan and not with India.,..It is as simple as that. Considering it was the same options exercised by the other states which went with India. So my friends the places that exist on this planet earth in different corners of this world on their own have absolutely no significance. It is the people that make them kashmir and it was their wish and desire that was completely overlooked by India as for them it became a matter of great pride and interest. The people and their choices in kashmir were completely forgotten. So much for the concept of democracy and secularism. Democracy and secularism needs to be seen and benefited by those for whom it is brought in. If it cannot, then I am afraid all those arguments you have put forward are in vain and holding onto a personal preference, a dream .
    Keep dreaming…As reality is a dose you are not too keen to look at…

    Kashkin

  57. kali says:

    I did not give you the right e-mail because as a woman I do not feel safe arguing and stating my convicions around Muslim men. Simple as that. Given what you guys do to people who speak the truth can someone be blamed? I have just stated convictions to give a contrarian position to a predominantly Muslim view. Because the other point of view has to be heard.
    the last post on this site

  58. Kali ki maa says:

    Raza…Wow, we seem to have a battle of crazies here with their own delusional beliefs … You have a Hindu fascist avtar of Kali, Dastgir who believes everyone is born Muslim and Islam is the natural religion of mankind …and yet another gentleman who believes India is an enligtened and modern state founded by socialists who did not lick the boots of the British.

    This is what I call blind leading the blind or in this case blind duelling with the blind.

  59. YLH says:

    Kashmir is about the right of self determination … a well defined international legal concept which is accepted by the United Nations. This is bolstered by the UN resolutions.

    The Muslim-Hindu issue, justifications etc pale in comparison to the fact that a people have their right to choose their own destiny. (No wonder Military dictators like Musharraf are ready to give up “UN Resolutions” as if that was upto them).

  60. Nilanjana Som says:

    Dastgir I am sorry…. but u asssumed I follow RSS. U assumed that by learning Urdu, I believe I am doing any favour. Please re-read ur comment that has painted that RSS are wearing mask and spreading terrorism…. U r saying that muslims are not involved in terrorism. If Babu Bajrangi is not following Gita does that give u right to turn Kalki into Prophet? Danish cartoon huya to people created a havoc… why should it be any different this time? Every religion has accomodated the end of the Universe and like wise waiting for Qayamat, Judgement Day, Kalki, Maitreya Buddha and the list goes on. May be someone will come or may be no one will but who gives u the right to hurt someone’s faith? If a Muslim does it, its his right. If under Muslim rulers Hindus have survived then Muslims have survived under Hindus as well. If u cannot forget Godhra and Babri Masjid then why should we forget the temples grazed by Muslims including Buddha statues. Everytime u come around saying that RSS wears beard and spreads hatred it sound funny u know. In Godhra u say 5000 Mulims were killed. Where did u get that figure from? Were Hindus not killed. U sound funny. RSS burnt 87 Hindus and then killed 5000 Muslims and all those Hindus who died? All those Hindus who died were probably Muslims whose beard were shaved. Right? All those Kashmiri Hindus who died were killed again by RSS right? Kafeel was a Hindu right? Afzal Guru is a HIndu? Dawood is a Hindu? Abu Salem is a Hindu? The problem is if a Hindu is wrong, there are many Hindus who say yes he or she is wrong. But with Muslims the problem is they turn blind eye and start arguing.
    U said Vidyasagar and all anglicized Hinduism. So they are wrong. Is it because they were Hindus or u think what they did for the betterment of the society was wrong? Common think before u say something. We payed a price for betterment. But even then we have managed to keep our culture and religion in tact – literature, music, durga puja… every damn thing.
    The thing is the way I accept RSS, Thackarey, Shibu Soren and many Hindus like them are bad (though not entire BJP and it is trying to change and have changed) will take my community forward. But a Muslim will always blame outsiders for what has happened to them. U will never look inside ur community and the flaws in it.
    I do not need to believe in GOD.. The fact that I am a HUMAN is the greatest realization in me. I do not need to fight over whose fucking God is better. But I do believe in religion and mine has taught me to respect others… but I have seen more Muslims who believe that if everyone is a Muslim then it would be a better world. Those Muslims need to look at the division within themselve. The Muslim countries and their on going war. Why blame USA and the West all the time. Do u guys not have brain? Evil can influence u only when the good within u is weak.
    GITA, VEDA, RAMAYANA, PURANA are more than literature. I hope one day u read them and understand the deeper meaning. They are books on philosophy that have been changed to suit the passage of time, the changing society. The commentries on them have been written till about 18th century. It is our acceptance of change that has helped us survive for so many years. So what Hindu term was coined by Arabs, who were not Muslims when they coined this term, but the basis of it was born long before that. Do u know, the Harappan cities were built on astronomy that can give stiff competition to present day astronomy. Imagine those Indians were so intelligent and forward thinking that they could actually build cities based on developed stage of astronomy. Same with the Chinese (though I hate them) and the Egyptians and the Parsis. Even though we are idol worhsippers, dear that doe not give the faith of book any right to insult our so-called literature (as u said).
    Since u mentioned Ramayan to be just a literature let me tell u why it cannot be treated as just a literature. Agree that it is not a book revealed but Ram is called Purushottam. Uttam in all the Purusha, that is he is the role model of how a Purusha should be. Right or wrong is always debatable. He left Sita because of the society and see even today irrespective of whichever religion u are a man would never live with a wife whose character is doubtful. Look at all the Aran nations. Look at our own constitution that says something like one cannot rape a woman of just moral!!! Do u need to read Ramayan to be Ram. But this incident is a reflection of social development. It is book about social psychology. It is not just a literature book like meghadutta. Nor is Mahabharat, Veda, Purana….. There is no better self-help book than Gita, of course u can always twist the meaning…. ‘Do ur work and do not worry about the fruit’ Some do their work of killing… but thats not what Krishna said. Similarly when u say Kalki is Prophet or Prophet is Kalki u r challenging our beliefe on Qayamat….. Every religion has a base , unfortunately Muslims go on challenging it. Like I said Hindus believe that since God has created everything, He is there in everything. So it is a message do not hurt anyone because I am in him or her. Many do not follow it. Thats why Gita should be reminded to them, I mean Hindus. But what right does it give to a Muslim to ridicule our book? Things does not necessarily come from GOD to be great…. Swami Vivekananda, who anglicised Hinduism will still be loved by us because he was a great man. So will be Tagore because he opened the eyes of the Bengalees to a lot of social complexities that need to be understood even the fact that why just singing Vande Mataram will not achieve any good for the country.
    The fact is Dastgir, u and I will never forget the atrocities done by the other’s religion and keep on arguing but u and I must accept the folies of our own religion and society. That is the reason why I gave the names u said anglicised Hinduism. They abolished ku-prathas and believe me being a woman I know what freedom means when I see so many live without any identity and still cursed. see the world around, see how in our country a woman is denied right to keep her child after the death of her husband because she is an AIDS patient. And how did she get AIDS? From her husband, she was thrown out and her child taken away. I know what freedom means. And I know how bad it is to live under the threat of terrorism, when after the bomb blast in Dilli I had no clue where my brother was? That day I relaised what terror means. Unfortunately ur blaming Hindus will not help. Bacause if as a Hindu I go to help ur community u will misunderstand and it is only natural. But the question is what r u doing for ur community? I as a plain Hindu with no blame game do not understand why should we let this country be divided in the name of religion. How could Kashmiri Muslims accuse us of trying to change the demographic equation of Kashmir with a piece of 40 hectres of land that was to be used only during the yatra for temprary shelter. Why a board, because the yatris are only increasing every year and the facility need to be improved. Amarnath is one of our dhams that we cannot let go. A Hindu will get offended. And if u do not know some Muslim fractions also said that the yeatra must be wrapped up in fifteen days as it is hampering the ecology. If it is so, then work out a way why make such statements? If I do not support Ram Setu (I think breaking it will cost unnecessary money and will harm the ecology, I do not support it because of some Ram or Shyam) and I do not support Kashmiri Muslims who are trying to divide the country in the name of religion. If u are saying BJP is doing it then, let me make it very clear, from the earliest time Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs refused to be a part of Pakistan occupied Kashmir. They do not want Azad Kashmir too, not after they have been thrown out by Kashmiri Muslim terrorists. And yup, do not forget China lays claim on many parts of Kashmir. So let me ask u did Nehru promise to Kashmiri Muslims alone?

  61. Peer O Murshid says:

    As a Kashmiri Muslim living in USA I find most people here are ignorant of Kashmir and international politics. Ask any Kashmiri and at the bottom of our hearts we are afraid of self rule although we want to be left alone. Sorry folks. Kashmiris are victims either way. They are caught between the devil and the deep sea and currently on the frying pan. Any decision taken any which way is going to increase the suffering of Kashmir. The questions on top of the mind of every thinking Kashmiri is this:
    Do you think India a nuclear power will so easily give self rule. You must be dreaming to believe it. It is not so easy as Arundhati Roy says. How much blood is going to be spilt if there is Self Rule. Do you people even understand that. Do you think the 70K army of India will sit quiet when Kashmir is formed as an Independent nation.
    After we get self rule in Kashmir you think we can be independent for long with Pakistan, China and Afhanisthan around. How can we maintain Kashmiriyath with chinese and mainland pakisthani infiltrators in Kashmir. Do you think afghanistani jehadis are welcome in Kashmir. The afghanis are as much foreign to us as is the Indian Pujabis. We had trade ties with both these communities. We Kashmiris are lost and our future is dark.
    Kashmir does not have an army to support itself . It has to rely on super powers. Pakistan and China is the only option. The US is tilted towards India now.
    I see a dark tunnel for Kashmir my home land. We were a peaceful people who lived in our own idylic world. Pandits included. We had many close ties with the pandits in business and culture. It was only later beacuse of partition and the growing polarization we have lost all the brotherhood. Kashmir is a scapegoat on the altar of India, pakistani and International politics. I blame Jinnah, I blame Nehru and I blame Sheik Abdullah. And our dream of self rule is very very bleak.
    With the new world polarised between the two superpowers – China and USA and with India being used by USA and Pakistan left nowhere to run except China. Kashmir will become a laboratory of war. Our Paradise is lost. We lost our peace. We are doomed. I feel for the people of Kashmir because there is no viable option for them. I don’t think they ever had any option in the last 60 years. I cry in the night every day thinking of my Kashmiri people.

  62. sheik says:

    Kali, You seem to be so proud, can you give the examples where minorities are burnt alive in Muslim countries like you burn Christians Orrisa. You are afraid of other religions because of castism in your religion. You should study Islam with open mind and then comment. Islam is not for for only Arabs or Pakistanis, The most populated Muslim country is Indonesia. Why should Kashmiris go to Pakistan, Kashmir belongs to them and India should vacate Kashmir.

  63. Nilanjana Som says:

    Sheikh Why should Hindus read Islam with open mind and Muslims not read Hinduism with open mind?
    As for Christians are concerned believe me missionaries are offering money in return of religion change. I first came to know of it when my maid, ten years back was offered 50000 to convert in Delhi. Then I had a friend from Assam who told me that religious conversions by missionaries offering money is a daily routine in their state. It is wrong to kill but what do you expect when one religion continues conversion. Is there a need? Aren’t there enough Christians and Muslims world over. This is the only Hindu country and the origin of it. You guys are so setimental about Mecca-Medina, but I do not understand why u disrespect our feeling. I wonder what will u do if this happens there? You cannot use poverty for conversion. Is it right to offer the poor money in return of conversion? Why not simply help them? It is strange that people talk about ‘I respect other religion and then go all out converting people’ Why?
    Ek bar apne upar le kar dekho. Socho agar yeh bas cheez Mecca-Medina main hota. Fortunately unfortunately, India is the birthland of our religion. Dastgir said it was a term coined by Arabs (who were non-muslims then) but the fact remains, India is our janambhumi, karambhumi, dharmabhumi and matribhumi. Irrespective of divisions within our own religions. The day u understand this, it will be easier to hold dialogue.
    Secondly, every religion and country is divided into caste. I hope u have read The Kite Runner? Casteism must be studied as a socio-genetical development. Religion comes to affect it much later. Yes they are ku-prathas and we are daily trying to deal with such issues. But these things are not as dangerous as terrorism.

  64. Nilanjana Som says:

    Peer O Murshid
    What is afterall Pakistan? But lets see the ground realities as you pointed out. But Peer my mother visited Kashmir in 1970s and there still was Kashmiriyat. This division was started by terrorism and terrorism alone. I agree the Indian government failed in Kashmir and Northeast. But lets accept Kashmir will get involved in the dirty border politics if it goes to Pakistan. Look whats happening in Pakistan. Now they have democracy why are they fighting? Why was there a blast a day after Musharaf resigned? Sorry but India actually started having a dialogue with pakistan due to Musharaff. I think, and its my personal view that not everyone is ready for democracy so we must not burdern every society. I see no problem with UAE at least on the face of it. In fact we had a very good relation with Saddam. Most of the Muslim nations are not for democracy. I am sorry but thats the rule. Somehow they fared better under one man. Yes of course with atrocities. Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi and some parts of Pakistan may be ready for democracy but not entire Pakistan. Lal Masjid should not have happened. Whatever, keep children out of it.
    Bangladesh I believe on the other hand is ready for democracy. So is India. But not Iraq. And those who say, Hindus burn people and not Muslims must read about Turkey-Kurds-Iraq-Iran-Syria (just to quote – In Turkey almost 10 million Kurds are forbidden to use their own language or to describe themselves as Kurds- why can they not survive as minorities. Only Muslims will have to answer this). The whole question is about survival. Same with Kashmir. How will it survive? Can it survive alone. If I think on that line as a Kashmiri Muslim I will know that Pakistan India and China will be watching and anyone can attack. I do not have my own army, I do not have self-sufficient infrastriucture to survive. I know Kashmiri Pundits will not be with me unless I keep on killing them like the past 20 years (for those who point Hindus burn minorities). Kashmiri Sikh and Buddhists are also not with me. How will I survive. How long will I hold talks after talks? Is Pakistan a better option? I leave the question open to Kashmiri Muslims….. I had a Muslim friend from Kashmir who told me from every single Kashmiri Muslim family there was a terrorist or terrorist link that sabotaged the pro-separatist movement. He also told me that even though I want azad Kashmir, but I can never trust Pakistan (give its condition) and i know the best solution (for him) is to be a part of India and start accepting the reality. He believed that if he tries to accept India he will be able to make a friend and save Kashmiriyat. Hindus are the only lot who have not waged religious war against any country that does not mean that we cannot fight a holy war. Those who think Hindus were not killed please read about the Musliom invasions and of course Muslim invasions in other countries

  65. Nilanjana Som says:

    Agar firdaus bar roo-e zameen ast,
    Hameen ast-o hameen ast-o hameen ast.

    Amir Khsuraw

    If there is a paradise on earth,
    It is this, it is this, it is this (India).

    Thats for my India, Kashmir se Kanya Kumari tak, the entire stretch.

  66. RR says:

    Nilanjana Som:

    Your recent comment for its sheer hatred has been blocked. You have said enough and cannot occupy this space. I suggest as you find all Muslims gangsters and terrorists why don’t you join the RSS militant wing and spend your energies there in organising Godhras, destroying mosques and shrines.
    Your views appear to be those of a bigoted, semi-educated person with a skewed sense of history. Stop making a fool of yourself and do something worthwhile.
    If my views are too strong my apologies – you asked for it!!

  67. abc says:

    The hate speech on this website just shows the virulent and malicious nature of all hindus. Hindus are only interested in killing or subjugating those who don’t subscribe to their cow/idol worshipping religion.
    Just look at what they are doing to Christians in Orissa and Muslims in Kashmir – all because they aspire to live lives of dignity and not submit to fanatic vermin like VHP and RSS. As long as India does not prosecute those guilty of genocide – as long as Modi and Togadia and alive – I will be ashamed of being an Indian.

    Disgusted to be indian

  68. sheik says:

    Nilanjana Som

    I sometimes feel it futile to answer you because of your ignorance and arrogance lest it may make you believe in your wrong concepts and disinformations. Shall I give you a small example, Agar firdaus bar roo-e zameen ast,
    Hameen ast-o hameen ast-o hameen ast. is not uttered by Amir Khsruraw but mugal king Jahangir.

    Instead of saying Christian missionaries make people convert by offering money, you should say why is their faith so weak that they readily convert for small sums. Why doesn’t it happen with other religions,
    Your other examples are also irrelevant, here we were talking about religious minorities, Casteism and people who kill innocents for faith. Where from you are quoting Kite Runner and Kurds. By the way kite runner is a work of fiction and even if it may have some degree of truth in it, you can’t blame Islam for it. If someone does something wrong I will be first to condemn it with you. But at least put fact straight, If kurds are being suppressed, it is equally condemnable, but we were talking about Christians being burnt alive for religious intolerance, not for political or any other reason. And for a second even if you find a parallel of what Christian went through in Orrisa , no sane person can quote that example to justify burning of mankind alive.

    The problem with you is that you are monkeying west for concepts , and if you have any, you have no conviction. Remember one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. You are wise enough to understand what I mean. Ten years back the people whom world called freedom fighters have suddenly become terrorists. This is politics of the politicians for their personal gains. I would welcome your own concepts if you have any otherwise it reflects on your mental bankruptcy and inability to accept facts.

    You should also remember that India was ruled by Muslim rulers and large chunk of ideas, traditions, monuments you sell to world to lure tourists is given by these Muslim kings. But I also agree that India had a glorious past too.

    Quoting things like I have a friend who said this and that doesn’t work with reasoning. Lots of bad things are happening in Pakistan and I Join you in condemning them but one can’t blame religion for it.

    Kashmir being eyed by Pakistan, china could be a fact, but let kashmiris handle it and stop acting as saviors which you are not.

    I highly regard originality but to put facts straight, even the democracy you are talking about, you have borrowed from Britishers, I am not commenting on the way you run it. I’m sure sure you are aware of the sting operations on politicians and how politicians buy or bully voters. And now please dont tell me it is happening in other places too and blame it on intelligence agencies to justify it.

  69. sheik says:

    Nilanjana Som

    I ‘m ready to study Hinduism with open mind if you are ready to study Islam with open mind , That’s deal OK.As simple as that, No hard feelings

  70. RR says:

    Sheik
    THanks for the correction to this ignorant person who cannot differentiate between Amir Khusrau and the Mughals. The 400 years difference does not matter in this hate-based Hindutva reinterpretation of history.

  71. After reading all the comments Specially of Kali ‘The Great Hindu spokesperson”, I felt speechless. I am sorry to see that folks around are behaving in a way that is not befitting. Hats off to RR who tried to let it go like this in the name of free speech but I think it is more than enough.
    Kali, I happened to be an Student of Indian History. I have pleasure of reading good deal of both Hindu and Muslim literature and it makes me think that your arguments are based on the literature widely spread for propaganda purposes by RSS and Hindutva styled organization.
    I am not an advocate of any extremism or Fundamentalism at all nor I like it but having read your comments I am quite convinced that Muslim are suffering in Kashmir since you are prototype of all those fascists and racists out there.

  72. Sunil says:

    FREE KASHMIR, I m a Kashmiri pundits and want to live with muslim brothers in kashmir, Let India get hell out of there. We were once conned by Jagmohan who fooled Kahmiri pundits by saying leave Kashmir for 15 days so that he could kill and supress freedom struggle in Kashmir. I wish we never left Kashmir. Where is Jagmohn now. Lets unite with Muslim brothers and fight evil forces. FREE kashmir.

  73. kali says:

    I have to intervene because the above is a PAKISTANI WRITING AS A kASHMIRI PANDIT. NOOOOOOOOOOOO PANDIT WOULD ASSERT THIS–i DARE YOU TO TELL ME WHO YOU ARE AND PROVE YOU ARE A KASHMIRI PANDIT. i AM SICKENED BY THIS SITE–THEY DO NOT HAVE THE BALLS TO PRINT ALL i WROTE. tHAT SHOULD TELL YOU–BECAUSE IT IS THEY ARE SCARED i AM TELLING THE TRUTH. tYPICAL OF YOU GUYS–HOW CAN ANYONE HAVE RESPECT FOR YOU WHEN YOU DO NOT PRINT WHAT THEY SAY BUT ONLY SELECTIVELY? aND THEY LET PEOPLE POSTING AS KASHMIRI PANDITS SAY STUFF? i AM SICKENED THAT i EVER ENTERED THIS SITE–

  74. sheik says:

    Important Concern, Ethics in Journalism

    I want to have your attention towards the role of some valley based journalist in the recent testing times in Kashmir. When peaceful protesters were being killed by Indian forces and economic blockade conducted by communal Dogras in Jammu, some of journalists were turning blind eye to the atrocities committed by Indian forces and J & K police. They were happy playing in the hands of Indian forces and their biased media. One such examples is NDTV’S correspondent from Jammu “Zafar Iqbal” reporting in an Indian air force helicopter that their was no economic blockade in the valley. This was the time when their was shortage of baby food in the valley leave alone other basic amenities. Did Mr. Zafar know that the national highway is three hundred kms. long and he showed only 2 to 3 kms. filming from Indian air force helicopter.Did Mr. Zafar bother to verify the claims of India or it was enough for him to report from the comforts of helicopter shooting some trucks over three km. stretch. Where is the conscience of such journalists gone. Would they sell their mother land for their pity personal gains. Shame

  75. billo says:

    kali: “i AM SICKENED THAT i EVER ENTERED THIS SITE”

    Hurrah! And thank God for that ! Does that mean you’ll be leaving? Please say yes, so that the rest of us can enjoy Raza’s wonderful reflections on sufism and India..thoughts that remind us that it’s better to talk about peace and respect and kindness.

  76. Sunil says:

    Kali!!! you are wrong. That no Kashmiri pundit will say this , how do you know. Are you a Kashmiri. Do you know anything about the relations between kashmiri Muslims and Pundits. You need to have some balls to accept this, that Kashmiri pundits left because Jagmohn promised their return in 15 days after killing and suppressing Muslims.We should have never left our Muslim brothers . That was a mistake. Hats off to all the Sikhs. they were there in the thick and thin alongside Muslim neighbors.

    You are right saying no kashmiri pundit will dare to say this, beause they did a mistake beyond repair. Now it is time to accept the reality. I know we can still return to valley and live there along side Muslim brothers. Kali, do you know there are still Kashmiri pundits living in valley and they are happier than pundits who migrated from Kashmir. Do I have to tell what the Dogras did to Kashmiri pundits in Jammu. I hope you will talk to some Kashmiri Pundits to know about it. I don’t have balls to write abut it here.

    Facts are Facts, and your ranting and abusive language won’t change that. That can only reveal your character. I have nothing against you , but how can you say no Kashmiri pundit will say this.People are saying it loud and clear only may be you are unaware. Just one example which everybody can access is a Film by Sanjay Kak “jashn-e-Azadi. Would you mind seeing his film and see what is he saying , not only saying but providing evidence and proofs. I hope you wont say Sanjay Kak is also a Pakistani.

    I don’t need to prove my Identity to any Tom , Dick and Harry because they say so. But in your case to dispel your wrong notions
    I can get in touch with you but you have to Identify yourself to me first.

    What made me come out in open against the wishes of some of my Community was the Hippocratic and criminal behavior of Indian
    state in Kashmir. I have been extremely disturbed by the fact that while X- US president Clinton had to visit India, 35 Sikhs were massacred in the chitti sigh Pora in Kashmir. And the blame was put on foreign mercenaries . Later on Indian forces killed 5 kashmiris terming them mercenaries who had killed these Sikhs. So far no problem. Under the pressure of international and national human rights groups an impartail enquiry was done where the bodies of these 5 people were exhumed and were found to be of local laborers who were picked from different parts of Kashmir and killed in cold blood. This is the democracy India is running in Kashmir. If you want to turn blind eye to all this Kali, you may, but I at least can say the truth if I cant do anything about it. By the way India tried to show to Clinton that minorities are not safe in Kashmir but Clinton knew already that Hindutva forces has carried out this massacre of Sikhs in Kashmir which he himself said and has written in a book. If you need reference of that book I can provide it to you.

    kali I don’t know who you are, but whoever you are you can’t represent me and pass sweeping judgments that no pundit will say it. How do you.

  77. kali says:

    Anyway, one cannot have much respect for a site that only prints what is acceptable of what I wrote—print everything then I might have some respect for this site? I did not use any foul language, just stated facts. Anyway, I guess this is how you try to win–buy blocking non-Muslims’ comments and printing only what appears selectively to conform to what is acceptable to your point of view– that is not called FREE DEBATE. IT IS CALLED PAKISTANI PROPAGANDA–And which is why only your own kind will contribute to the propaganda on this site and no one else will think fit to join you people.

  78. RR says:

    Kali
    Please leave us alone – why do you bother visiting this website when you have such angst against everything to do with the word “Muslim” – and don’t tell me that you have Muslim friends because is downright insulting and contemptuous – perhaps you know that every white supremacist says that: “Oh I don’t hate the blacks as I have many black friends”.
    You have said enough and spat much venom and your visits are not welcome any more. Try and post things at RSS/VHP websites – you will have an eager audience.
    Not here with a fake name and email id – pusillanimity at its worst!

  79. RR says:

    And Kali – this site does not need certificates of approval and ‘respect’ from anonymous, dehumanised bigots like yourself.
    Don’t bother replying here…

  80. sheik says:

    Kali, If we go by your logic , you should first ask all the hindus to vacate muslim countries where they are doing menial jobs or otherwise.

  81. Sunil says:

    Being a Hindu,I apologize RR if some Hindu zealots are hurting your sentiments. Hindus like Kali and Nilanjana are suffering from inferiority complex. Without understanding the essence of their own religion , they just comment on other religions. They seem to be part of Brahman lobby which have suppressed the other Hindus since ages. They are using religion just to maintain the hegemony over other Hindus. I totally nullify their comments.

    These two zealots have been using term Pakistanis derogatorily. I don’t understand why. India and Pakistan are two separate countries and unless we show respect to the other how can the other respect us.

    Little wonder! That they know their prime ministerial candidate Advani’s daughter Pritiba Advani is dating a Pakistani Doctor. Father is threatening Pakistan with nuclear weapons and daughter is dating a Pakistani. Why don’t they first put their house in order before preaching and threatening others.

    I also find Nilanjana’s comment that Muslims should study Hinduism with open mind ridiculous. Does he/she not know that even if someone is impressed by Hinduism , they cannot convert to Hinduism. Because people like them think that only born Hindus are Hindus and only they are blessed and no one can accept their religion. It is pure stunt by these so called upper caste Hindus to keep their hegemony intact in Hindu society. We common Hindus have nothing against any other religion. The zealots like Kali and Nilanjana should not be taken seriously. Their reaction could be the reasons of heartbreaks or heart burns.

    Word of cautious for kali and Nilanjana. When in west someone calls you paki, don’t try to explain to them you are not paki but Indian. they don’t know the difference.

  82. kali says:

    First of all Sunil (your name is really Mahmoud I should think). Stop pretending to be a Pandit. Sorry you seem to be rather low on self-esteem.
    I am not a dehaumanized bigot–the dehumanized bigots are those that killed the non-violent Pandits and kicked them out of their centuries of habitat. I have never treated anyone badly ever in my life. I just believe in stating what I think and I do not believe in political correctness and believe in free speech.
    And Sunil, quit posing as a Pandit and have a little self- respect for yourself. You seem to be rather low on self esteem. The Kashmiri Pandits as much as anyone deserve to live in Kashmir. Never in my life have I been mistaken for Pakistani and if I were so what? But I have been placed anywhere from Greece to India. I have always found it strange that people think I am from their country and get a laugh at it. Even Turks constantly think I am some muslim girl and I always have a laugh. My best friend’s mother said I was like the Iranians in every way–and I just had a laugh at that too. People in the West that I associate know very well the difference between Pakistan and other countries, and do not make such stupid comments like that. I am proud of what I am, do not need to be anything else, we have been this way for over thousands of years, I no not impose our beliefs on others and hopefully our children will pass on our heritage.
    My best Muslim friends are Iranians here. They are largely tolerant and I get a different version of Islam from them than from you folk. They would never believe your propaganda.
    I am not sure why I am called a bigot–for defending the Pandits’ claims to their ancestral homes. They never killed anyone–unlike the Muslims drove them out through violence. The Pandits do not have the blood of anyone on their hands, which is why Muslims should be more ashamed of what they did.
    As for converting to Hinduism, HIndus never believe in converting folk. But if people convert of their own accord, I do not think HIndus would reject them. YOu see this with the crazy Hare Khrishna type sects here anyway.
    Anyway Sunil quit because you should never pretend to be something that you are not. Perhaps Muslims should think what they are to gain by this violence.
    Ciao

  83. kali says:

    Do you think Pandits do not feel sentimental about thier land? They deserve to be there as much as anyone else. They had a very unique way of life and never bothered anyone. Muslims should really understand they are getting nowhere with their violence. Yes I do know some Pakistanis. But they are from a persecuted sect in Islam and were not comfortable living there. These people are quite decent.
    Where has all this violence lead them? Nowhere. The valley is mono-cultural now. Did they not get want they want?
    How come any site dealing with the Kashmir issue never mentions the Pandits? Is it not their home as well? Were they harming anyone? Who started the trouble and disrupted a multi-cultural valley? Who forced 400,000 people to leave their homes?
    Why is anyone who defends them a member of the RSS?
    If Muslims forced you out of your home, what would you think of them? What would anyone in this situation think of them?
    Please do not call anyone bigot. Anyone that represents a one sided point of view is bigoted not me.

  84. sheik says:

    kali !How old are you, by your writing you seem to be very young. Because you are ignoring many facts. You doubt religious tolerance of Kashmiri muslims. Ask your elders, they can tell you when in 1947 Hindus and Muslims killed each other, no Hindu was touched in valley. When Muslims were massacred in Jammu, No pandit was touched in valley.

    I don’t need to talk about everything you have mentioned, because you yourself know what is true and what is not. Your whole premise is wrong. don’t be blind by hatred. Spread love and peace.

    I agree on most of your points, I surely believe you look like an Iranian and not kali. I surely believe that Kashmir belongs to all kashmiris and Pundits are very much part of kashmir. Please come back o valley. If some Pundits were killed so were more than 50,000 Muslims.

    You are always welcome in the valley. You know and I know there are right now pundits living in valley. You should come back to valley , for that matter every pundit should come back to valley, but if they are settled outside now and don’t want to come that is also fine.Because lots of you have businesses and jobs outside. But they should not spread hate because they are not retuning.

    If you say Pundits were driven out, I would say they chose to leave.Why didn’t Sikhs leave.

    I don,t have anything against Pundits but I have problem with hypocrisy.

    I can support you on all accounts but not on one account. And That is,

    Kashmir was never a part of India. It was a separate kingdom through out the known history, sometimes Hindu kings ruled it and other times Muslim rulers. Even Mugal king Akber could not invade us. So how come suddenly it is an integral part of India. If you can convince us (Kashmiris) how it is part of India we are ready to listen to your argument. Because India is a powerful country, does that make Kashmir part of India, or India says it is so called secular country , does that make it a part of India. We should take lessons from History. No Country, no matter how powerful it is can hold people against their wishes. India is not as powerful as erstwhile USSR was . It could not hold people against their wishes.

    Let all pundits come back to valley and have a plebiscite and see what people want. I will have no problem staying with India if that is what majority want. And if people want to be Independent or go with pakistan still people can have the free will to move to India or Pakistan who do not want to live in free Kashmir. Why to make such a simple matter complicated. And if anyone says India won’t pull back its troopes from kashmir, then kashmiris say we are ready to struggle for thousand years to make it happen and won’t forget the atrocities committed on us by Indian state for next two thousand years.

    Please next time you should write about love which you symbolize as being Kashmiry not hatred. You have enough people in India to spread hatred. Please dont over react and have some mercy on readers. Present your argument but be nice. I am sure you are not kind of person in real life what your writings reflect. Take it easy,

  85. sheik says:

    Please read this article by a kashmiri Hindu, Kali May I have your attention please, Please read this.

    http://www.kashmiraffairs.org/hangloo_hindu_muslim_relations_in_kashmir.html

  86. kali says:

    Overlooked and Ignored- Kashmiri Hindus

    by Roopa Bakshi

    Kash_Hindus-_camp_Gita_Bhavan.jpg (66817 bytes) Kasmiri_hindus-USCR-Hiram_A_Ruiz.jpg (14499 bytes)

    350,000 Kashmiri Hindus have been displaced from their homes as a result of terrorism in Kashmir. They live in camps in Jammu and Delhi. – AP Photos, Ajit Kumar

    Kashmir was once an idyllic state. Hindus, the original inhabitants of this lost paradise, have a 5000 year history in the area, documented by local and visiting historians. The Muslim presence became significant only in the fourteenth century , largely due to forced conversions by the invading Muslim armies, who eventually stayed on to rule, and also because a mass exodus of Hindus, fleeing this persecution, left few (Hindus) in the area. There was another face of Islam that entered Kashmir – the Sufis who were also fleeing persecution in Iran, Iraq and other areas of central Asia. The Sufis brought with them a gentle message of ‘live and let live’ in stark contrast to the persecution of Hindus by the earlier waves of Muslim invasions – waves that destroyed their places of worship, killed them or forced them into converting to Islam. However, it was the gentler side of Islam that survived and prevailed over the years in Kashmir – until recently.

    The last six hundred years saw the evolution of a tradition of peaceful co-existence and religious tolerance and friendship that transcended faith. The Sufis invited the remaining Hindus, now in a minority, to use their place of worship known as ‘Ziarat’, for many temples had been destroyed. This practice of a common place of worship – a concept that may sound Utopian to many – became the norm. Over the years Kashmir became an example for the rest of the world – an example for all the right ideals of secularism. However, the partition of India in 1947 changed it all.

    Robert Marquand, writing on the Kashmir conflict says, “… like some epic custody battle between two selfish and unyielding parents, little concern has been paid by Pakistan and India to the stability and integrity of the Kashmiri “child” …Today, rooftops are being rebuilt on a row of burned-out houses in the swanky Hindu part of old town Srinagar. This neighborhood was torched in 1992 during a Muslim insurgency that drove 250,000 Hindus out of Kashmir, about 98 percent of them. But the new sound of pounding hammers does not tell a sweet story of return and renewal. The Hindus, a crucial part of this paradisiacal Himalayan valley, are not coming back. At least not now. Moderate Kashmiris say what has been destroyed is something called “kashmiriat” – an invisible but palpable understanding that Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and others would live together peaceably.”

    Today, almost 55 years after the partition, the culture of secularism has been eroded and replaced by culture of fundamentalism. The Sufi places of worship lie disused and new mosques, built with money from Muslim countries, have taken over. The sermons delivered in these mosques, delivered by clerics not from Kashmir, speak not the language of love and compassion, but of hate.There has been yet another wave of Hindu exodus – more violent than the earlier ones – one that has uprooted them from their homes and homeland. More than 350,000 Kashmiri Hindus were compelled to leave Kashmir. The Kashmir Overseas Association (KOA) has described the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits as “ethnic cleansing of an indigenous minority. The Kashmiri Pandits are a peace-loving minority population that for decades played by the rules set by the Muslim majority of the state. For no fault of their own, other than their religion, the population was targeted for barbarous acts and driven out of the valley. This is ethnic cleansing whether or not one chooses to use that term.” Their property was destroyed or taken over by the militant Islamic groups, and thousands were brutally killed. Most of these 350,000 have remained a part of this ever-increasing statistic. They live in torn, ragged tents or one-room tenements constructed for them in Delhi and Jammu. They survive on meagre rations and hope that one day they may be able to return home. The Kashmiri Sikhs and moderate Kashmiri Muslims have also fled the wrath of fundamentalism and terrorism. About 1500 Muslim families and 1800 Sikh families have been the targets of Islamic militancy as well. It is estimated that there are still around 10,000 Hindus who have chosen to stay behind in Kashmir.

    Kashmiri Hindus, or Kashmiri Pandits as they are generally known, have had the highest literacy rate among all groups in India. Their liberal, broad-minded and secular views made them good teachers. And their small numbers and polite and passive temperament also makes them easy to ignore and to be overlooked. It is not that they are not missed by their Muslim friends and colleagues back in Kashmir. As Qudsia Shah, former president of the women’s college in Srinagar stated to Marquand, “The exodus of Hindus is not good for Kashmir. We Muslims are the losers…Academic standards have dropped, to say the least.” The new ethos is that of Islamic fundamentalist education, veiled little schoolgirls, and women in purdah – in a land that was once happy and at peace. A new gun-culture has replaced the culture of harmony that once epitomised ‘the rich, artistic, syncretic culture’ of the valley. “The real tragedy is that the music, dance, literary tradition, the rich syncretic culture of Kashmir, have been destroyed or forgotten.”- Amitabh Mattoo, a professor at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi. Dr. Mattoo is hopeful though of the future, “You can’t forever silence a centuries-old tradition in 10 years,” he says. “Kashmiriat will come back, though it might take some time.”

    Wanchoo, a businessman who chose to stay back in Kashmir, told Sonia Jabbar in an interview, that “‘We will never leave Kashmir, and we don’t believe in a separate homeland. This is our homeland and we wish to live in peace here. As for the killings, well it’s a problem faced by all Kashmiris, not just the Hindus. Everyday you read that 8-10 people have been killed and they’re usually Muslims. But the militants must realize that they only get discredited when they kill the minorities.” His wife, also in an interview with Sonia Jabbar of Asia Times, related an experience which made her smile with delight and hope. ”At a wedding recently a whole lot of us had gathered after a long, long time – Muslim women as well as Sikh and Pandit women – and we really had fun, singing and dancing late into the night just as we used to before the militancy started. As I was turning in to sleep I heard the Muslim women whispering among themselves in the kitchen. ‘After so long,’ they said, ‘after so many years all of us have come together. It’s true, isn’t it, that a garden is most beautiful when there is a profusion of many kinds of flowers.”

    Yet, the hands that tend this garden have overlooked and ignored ‘ the original flora’ of the garden – the Kashmiri Pandits. They are seldom included in any debate or discussion on problems or solutions to Kashmir. Their passivity and gentleness makes it so easy to do so.

  87. Sunil says:

    I as a kashmiri Pundit and living in Kashmir certainly share some of the concerns of Kali about the Kashmiri Pundits who left kashmir in early nineties. But after looking at some of the links Kali has posted suggest her association with panun kashmir.

    I would want to take this opportunity to say that Kashmiri Pundits living in kashmir totally disassociate themselves with Panun kashmir which they think is spreading communal hatred and have been spearheading attacks on Mosques and muslims in Jammu. We kashmiri pundits have nothing to do with them. These are the people who have sold their properties in kashmir and have no intentions to return to valley and are creating problems for common kashmiris Hindus by flaring communal tention. They dont represent common kashmiri pundit,

  88. kali says:

    We kashmiri pundits have nothing to do with them. These are the people who have sold their properties in kashmir and have no intentions to return to valley and are creating problems for common kashmiris Hindus by flaring communal tention.

    Mwahahahaah!!!!! Kashmiris have every intention to return to their lands once they can live there in peace . They are not people to die out easily. I can smell a fake from miles–did’not you know I have a sixth sense?

  89. kali says:

    “spearheading attacks on Mosques and muslims in Jammu.”

    You really know to speak a load of crap don’t you? You might fool everyone Mahmoud but believe we recognize our people from miles and you certainly ain’t one.
    Ciao

  90. kali says:

    One last thing– this site represses facts and prints opinions of Muslims no matter if they happen to be pretending to be Pandits with the name of Sunil: FACT.They will never be able to erase the Hindu and Buddhist roots of the valley, Pandits have a 3000 year attachment to the valley–they want their lands back and with enough dedicated individuals all over the world to help them, they will one day obtain their lands. Belonging to one organization or another is irrelevant: all Pandits have right on their side, were expelled by Muslim fanatics and want to live in their ancestral lands it is their RIGHT–nothing more, nothing less–
    Anway I have already explained all I need to and they have selectively printed the facts I presented, not the entire unabridged version.
    No more to say because it involves arguing with fakes like Sunil.
    So have no desire to take part in this discussion. Muslims taking the name of Pandits like Sunil can say all that they want now.

  91. RR says:

    Kali
    Among all the visitors who leave a comment, you are the one with a fake name and a fake email id. I have told you time and again that you have said enough but like all hysterical polemicists you are repeating yourself ad nauseum. Have mercy on yourself and also the readers and this site that has not been created for communal discords and hate-mongering. You spread the poison through your vicious comments and people had to respond.
    thanks and just leave us alone in peace…..

  92. Sunil says:

    Kali You can’t muzzle our voice. We subscribe to the views of pundits like Sanjay Kak. Here is the link what he thinks about kashmir. And don’t forget to watch Jashan-e-azadi and see what your sixth sense tells you.

    http://socialistworker.org/2008/09/08/anatomy-of-the-crisis

  93. sheik says:

    This is what they do when cameras are around. Imagine what did to these kids in custody.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gbWI8QHitA&feature=related

  94. kshmendra kaul says:

    The Azadi We Need

    Prompted by the Arundhati Roy article, Umair Ahmed Muhajir in his critique dismisses the “Azadi” call in Kashmir since he sees it as an attempt to carve out another “Nation State” out of the existing Indian “Nation State”.

    http://www.outlookindia.com/fullprint.asp?choice=1&fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1

    The Azadi We Need

    The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a rallying cry, is not the answer. The freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation-states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us.

    UMAIR AHMED MUHAJIR \

    Towards the end of her impassioned piece calling for azadi for Kashmir, Arundhati Roy pauses to reflect on what might follow azadi in Kashmir, wondering what an independent Kashmir might mean, including what the independence demanded by the state’s Muslim majority might mean for the state’s religious or other minorities. She does well not to linger, because the thought experiment illustrates precisely what is most problematic about “national movements”, namely that they are unable to think the political except through the prism of nation-states.

    National movements, that is to say, see themselves as nation-states-in-waiting, and do not see any political horizon beyond that of the nation-state. So was it with the Indian national movement, and its inability to think the difference that might have been capacious enough to house the country’s Muslim-majority regions; so it definitely was with the Muslim League and its two-nation theory, even more wedded to the siren song of European-style nationalism transplanted to a colonial setting; and so it is with the “copycat” nationalisms that have followed, be it Kashmir, or Punjab, or Nagaland. The failure to imagine a nation-state different from the traditional European model, the shoe-horning of Indian communitarian identities, into models conceived with the likes of Germany and England in mind, paved the way for the catastrophes of partition. The “belated” nationalisms of the post-partition sub-continent demonstrate the truth of Marx’s depressing observation, namely that we learn from history that we do not learn from history.

    The point is worth making given Roy’s trenchant critiques of the Indian state (in the context of Kashmir, but not only of Kashmir; her essay on the Indian state and dams, The Greater Common Good, is astonishingly powerful). That is, much of Roy’s critique — of the Indian state’s indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its cruelty — is (or certainly ought to be) animated not by her target’s Indianness, but by the fact that it is a nation-state, and as such, does what nation-states do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity in the service of a larger political project. The distinction is an important one, because nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result. Minority rights? Justice for different communities, and between genders? The outcomes will be better than they are now, we are told by the movement, not because the aims are different from those of the existing Indian state, but because the movement will simply do a better job.

    I am skeptical, and not because of the identity (religious or otherwise) of those who comprise the Kashmiri independence movement; I am skeptical because the aim of that movement is congenitally incapable of producing a result that is “better” in some cosmic sense — at most the identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new disfavoured minorities, new “outsiders”, new “insiders”, and new identity policemen are created. Roy is too sophisticated not to see this, but doesn’t bother to delve into it, pretending that this is merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out their agenda in greater detail as yet.It is not: over half a century ago, Hannah Arendt wrote (in The Origins of Totalitarianism) of the masses of refugees and victims that seemed to accompany the birth of every new nation-state, and nothing has changed, not in the age of South Ossetia, Kosovo, Rwanda, ad nauseum.

    Certainly, those of us from the sub-continent should be especially wary of political projects that promise us clean solutions to intractable political problems: we live with the legacies of the bloodbaths of the 1940s, not to mention innumerable later, “lesser” massacres. By all accounts, the leaders of the new nation-states of India and Pakistan were caught by surprise by the scale of the violence in 1947; they had evidently internalized the logic of colonialism, pursuant to which communitarian difference presents a political “problem” that may be solved by means of creative cartography and judicious population transfers. Conceptual neatness is one of the hallmarks of the colonial mindset (thinking of Cyril Radcliffe, who could doubt it?). Unfortunately, reality is anything but, and the sub-continent’s leaders — and, even more importantly, its people — should have learned long ago that partitions are not the solution to people’s inability to live together; rather, the mindset that vests its faith in drawing easily-policed borders is a mindset that demands enemies. It is a mindset that, in the final analysis, demands that facts on the ground correspond to the political project of the nation-state (and not the other way around). A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu pride is honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must know their place.

    Why would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for Kashmiris, as far as those who don’t fit the bill are concerned? Certainly the region is not short of candidates for stigmatisation (some of this is because India is fantastically diverse; some of it is because nation-states are rather gifted at manufacturing “problematic” identities): Buddhists; Shiites; Gujjars; perhaps even Sunni Muslims who will be deemed insufficiently supportive of the independence movement (the last is hardly far-fetched, as even a casual glance at the history of Algeria or the Khalistan movement, or Kashmir itself during the 1990s, makes clear). Indeed, several hundred thousand Kashmiri Pandits have already been driven off, and it is hard not to see in them a harbinger of more to come.

    The above might seem like an odd place from which to maintain a defense of India vis-à-vis Kashmir. It is, on the contrary, a natural vantage point: the idea of an independent Kashmir for Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly inhuman. Equally, however, they are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; nor are they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they are not all equally incapable of accommodating human difference, whether communitarian or otherwise. The Germany of 2008 is manifestly not the Germany of 1938; but nor does the Germany of 2008 accommodate ethnic minorities as comfortably as the United States does.

    None of this relieves any state of moral responsibility for the horrors it perpetrates; but in order to agitate against horrors, one must first understand what they are.And within the range of nation-states on offer — all of them problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty — it is apparent to me that those premised on explicit notions of religion, language, ethnicity, blood in some sense, are more problematic, more complicit, than those with far more modest litmus tests. The contemporary United States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India, are among the latter group of nation-states; Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, based on the logic of the movements, the would-be nation-states of Kashmir or Khalistan, are not. Theoretically, one does not need to be other than “wholly Bengali”, “wholly Tamil”, or “wholly Muslim” in order to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and its Hindus citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement means it is almost inconceivable that this won’t be true of an independent Kashmir as well (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic dimension).\

    Indeed, even if one were to take the likes of Yasin Malik at their word, they promise no more than Jawaharlal Nehru did, that is to say a secular state where all who live in Kashmir, of whatever ethnicity or religious persuasion, will be equal in the eyes of the state; why and how could such a project — essentially the same Nehruvian show on a smaller stage — yield a better result? On the contrary, all the signs are that an independent Kashmir would be more like Pakistan than India: not because both are Muslim majority (that is irrelevant to the point I am making), but because both movements are explicitly predicated on a favoured community that is less than everyone who lives within the state’s borders.

    Why does any of this matter? Because nation-states where “second-class” citizenship is implicit — think the United States prior to de-segregation; I assume Roy would include India; but really one could argue some are always more equal than others in all nation-states — can be called out on their failures. Such nation-states are guilty of hypocrisy, but hypocrisy is not the worst sin; indeed hypocrisy, by opening up a gap between theory and practice, between promise and reality, makes it possible to hold a mirror up to the state, to try and compel it to honour its own promise to itself; and enables us to argue that the nation-state is only imperfectly itself until it takes a good long look in that mirror.

    In short, the point is that while the Jim Crow South is unforgiveable, the civil rights movement and Martin Luther King’s “I Have a Dream” moment are possible in a USA where actual practice made a mockery of the nation-state’s constitutional guarantees of equal protection under the laws; they would not be possible in the face of apartheid South Africa, which could not be reformed, simply destroyed. It is far more difficult, perhaps insurmountably so, to call the nation-state to task where it has promised and can promise nothing different than what it offers (one can rebel and try and dismantle the state, but one can’t make it see the problem): beyond a point, a “Pakistan for Pakistanis”, that is to say for Pakistanis of all religious persuasions, would make no sense, and would undermine the national idea (substitute “ethnicities” for “religious communities” and the idea of Pakistan becomes more flexible; it should come as no surprise that the movement for ethnic justice, greater federalism, and rights for smaller provinces, has far more legs in Pakistan than any movement for the rights of religious minorities; ethnicity illustrates the potential flexibility, but also the limits, of the idea of Pakistan; and even with respect to ethnicity, the difference of even a Bengali Muslim identity that was deemed “too Hindu” could not be accommodated within the state).

    A “Kashmir for Kashmiris” is far closer to the idea of Pakistan than to the Nehru’s India, and perhaps closest of all to Bangladesh, seeking to compress both 1947 and 1971 in one secessionist moment. Roy would do well to remember the “Biharis” stranded in refugee camps in Bangladesh since 1971, Muslim but not Bangladeshi enough; and she herself mentions the 1971 genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistani army, who were not Muslim enough. The promise of the Kashmiri movement combines both of these nightmares.

    None of this is about the decency or lack thereof of Mirwaiz Farooq, or Yasin Malik, or anyone else. The question isn’t whether these are or are not upstanding politicians who genuinely believe that Kashmir belongs to all Kashmiris, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or Sikh, or not; the more important question concerns the logic of what they let loose in the world (more accurately, the logic that they and would-be nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades). The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a rallying cry, is not the answer to that question; the freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation-states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us.

    The nation-state as political Alpha and Omega was problematic in its European birthplaces to begin with; to continue to cling to it as the last best hope of ethnic or religious minorities in milieus like India’s (or Africa’s, or the Balkans’; pick your poison), in the wake of the man-made disasters that have befallen us over the last century, is nothing short of bankrupt.

    (Umair Ahmed Muhajir is based in New York City. When not blogging at qalandari.blogspot.com or contributing to naachgaana.com, he makes a living as a lawyer.)

  95. kshmendra kaul says:

    Consequent to this very competently and forcefully argued out position of Umair Ahmed Muhajir, I have been asking a set of questions which I think are of extreme importance for anyone who is interested in Kashmir.

    I have also analysed Umair Ahmed Mujajir’s article and in doing so laid down a structure (hopefully without misrepresenting what Umair said/meant) that would lead to the asking of those questions in connection with the “Kashmir Azadi”.

    THE QUESTIONS

    1. When “Azadi” is spoken about in connection with Kashmir, what is the geography of that “Kashmir”?

    2. The ‘contours of the movement’ and ‘elements of Azadi‘ in Indian Controlled Kashmir are fairly well know even if not well understood. If the “geography” of the Kashmir “Azadi” covers the ‘erstwhile Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir as it stood Pre-1947-Partition’ then what are the ‘contours of the movement’ and the ‘elements of Azadi’ in Pakistan Controlled Kashmir? What are the synergies between the two? When and How will the two merge?

    3. If the Kashmir “Azadi” does not cover Pakistan Controlled Kashmir, Why not?

    4. Will the Kashmir “Azadi” lead to a “New Country”?

    5. How will this New Nation State be better than the Indian Nation State as far as Indian Controlled Kashmir is concerned? What will make it better?

    6. What will the Constitution (briefly) of this New Country be?

    7. On what specific points will the Constitution of this New Country be different from the Constitution of India? In what specific aspects will the Constitution of this New Country be better than the Constitution of India?

    THE ANALYSIS OF UMAIR AHMED MUHAJIR’s ARTICLE

    There are many people in whom one can see a confluence of what are two basically contradictory positions. They are dismissive of the “Nation State” and “Nationalism” and at the same time are supportive of the Kashmir “Azadi”.

    There is an inherent hypocrisy in this because all that they are doing is seeking to reject Indian Nationalism and favouring Kashmir Nationalism even as they elsewhere constantly proclaim that they are ‘against’ Nationalism and ‘against’ the concept of Nation States.

    In his very competently written piece, UAM dismisses the “Azadi” call in Kashmir since he sees it as an attempt to carve out another “Nation State” out of the existing Indian “Nation State”.

    UAM’s repugnance is for a Nation State of any hue. His dismissal of Kashmir “Azadi” (and of Arundhati Roy’s “rallying cry” in its support) is based on questioning what, in the the name of “Azadi,” is being sought to be “let loose on the world” and questioning “the logic that they and would-be nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades”.

    In UAM’s view, all of this Kashmir “Azadi” movement(s), if successful, would only lead to yet another “Nation State” and so he finds no merit in it. The “Azadi” that UAM is looking for is described by him as “the freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation-states”.

    On a personal note – in UAM’s favoured recognition of “Azadi” I too subscribe to the expansiveness of attitude that one should not think of “peoples and communities” ONLY in terms of Nation States. I say that to and for myself, as one who subscribes to and fervently argues in support of Nation States since I see them as (currently at least) the only credible practically functional system for organized societies. Without any qualification, I completely share UAM’s desire for “an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us.”

    UAM does not contest Arundhati Roy’s “critique — of the Indian state’s indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its cruelty” since UAM recognizes that India as a Nation State “does what nation-states do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity in the service of a larger political project.”

    At the same time UAM says with confidence that “nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result.”

    Giving examples of “Minority rights? Justice for different communities, and between genders?” UAM does not see any difference in the aims of the (Azadi) ‘movement’ and those of the “existing Indian state”.

    UAM rather sarcastically tells Arundhati Roy that she did “well not to linger” over her “thought experiment” where she wondered “what the independence demanded by the state’s Muslim majority might mean for the state’s religious or other minorities”. UAM suggests that “”””identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new disfavoured minorities, new “outsiders”, new “insiders”, and new identity policemen””””””

    UAM finds disingenuous any sidelining of such concerns with any excuse that it was “merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out their agenda in greater detail as yet”. UAM asks “Why would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for Kashmiris, as far as those who don’t fit the bill are concerned?”

    Even as UAM sees little hope for Kashmir “Azadi” not resulting in “refugees” and “victims”, he argues against the Kashmir “Azadi” by saying “people — should have learned long ago that partitions are not the solution to people’s inability to live together; rather, the mindset that vests its faith in drawing easily-policed borders is a mindset that demands enemies. ……..A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu pride is honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must know their place.”

    UAM does not place any trust in the “outcomes” from the Kashmir “Azadi” being any better than the situations in the “existing Indian state” just on the the basis of “being told by the movement” that the “movement will simply do a better job.” Sounding skeptical about the “secular” drumbeats of the “likes of Yasin Malik” he sees them, even if accepted, as being no different from the “Nehruvian show on a smaller stage” and sees no reason for believing that they would “yield a better result”

    UAM reckons that a “Kashmir for Kashmiris” is in fact further away from Nehru’s India and more like the idea of Pakistan and Bangladesh. He fears that “The promise of the Kashmiri movement combines both of these nightmares.” (The killings, displacements and creation of disadvantaged groups).

    I just could not put my finger on it. UAM makes an intriguing statement that both the Kashmir and Pakistan movements are “explicitly predicated on a favoured community that is less than everyone who lives within the state’s borders.” This has many possible interpretations but UAM makes it clear that “Muslim majority” is not what he is talking about.

    UAM sees “second class citizenship” implicit in the Kashmir “Azadi” and sees that as hypocritical when compared to (taken from his Blog and is not included in the Outlook article) “nation-states where “second-class” citizenship is explicit, where it is part of the very logic of the state.”

    UAM brings about a fascinating distinction between Nation States where some are better than the others although he considers them all accountable in the “moral responsibility for the horrors it perpetrates” and “all of them problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty”

    UAM finds more complicit and more problematic the group of Nation States like “Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, based on the logic of the movements, the would-be nation-states of Kashmir or Khalistan” since they are “premised on explicit notions of religion, language, ethnicity”

    Against them he finds better the group of Nation States like “the contemporary United States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India”. As UAM puts it “Theoretically, one does not need to be other than “wholly Bengali”, “wholly Tamil”, or “wholly Muslim” in order to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and its Hindus citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement means it is almost inconceivable that this won’t be true of an independent Kashmir as well (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic dimension).”

  96. Rudra says:

    Hi,

    Here’s the other side of the argument. Feel free to stop by and post your thoughts and comments.

    Best,

    Rudra

    http://medhajournal.com/content/view/514/

  97. sheik says:

    Rudra,

    You have made a good case but unfortunately on false premise, What actually you mean by saying,
    “(who roamed freely in the valley long before the Moslems arrived)?”

    Are you saying Muslims in kashmir came from outside, Well if you mean that then i would humbly suggests you to do some research before making sweeping statements. Some Muslims may have come from out side and preached the faith, but the hindu masses converted to Islam under the influence of these travelers.

    I dont want to get into any kind of discussion with you what is better for kashmirs or what about the Kashmiri pundits. of course they are a part of kashmir, I tend to let you win all the argument but kashmiri (Muslims) see this what you call “terrorism” as their freedom struggle like Indians see their freedom struggle against Britisth.

  98. Vandana says:

    See how even this blog became a discussion about everything except the Kashmiris.No matter whether Kashmir goes to Pakistan or remains with India,the lot of Kashmiris will remain the same.they are just pawns bcause of their geographical location.They might be with ‘Hindu’ India(actually India is multi ethnic and muli religious) or might go to ‘Islamic’ Pakistan but their interests will always take a back seat.And forget about Kasmiri independence.The moment India lets it go it will be gobbled up by Pakistan and then shared as “small tukdey” with China.
    Only way forward is to let Pakistan have their Punjabised POK and India to have what it has and India should do away with that destructice clause(article 360) and let Kashmir regain its Kashmiriyat that was muli polar.This turning it into a mainly muslim state has hampered its integration with India.

  99. Dastagir says:

    There should be justice in all pieces (tukdey)… whether those pieces (tukdas) are held / administered by the Govt. of India., or the Govt. of Pakistan. Period. Indian Army’s behavior (which is documented) has alienated the Kashmiri hearts and minds. 60 years of physical possession was period long enough to have accomplished winning the battle of the hearts and minds. With every Gujarat 2002, Kashmir inches away. If 90% Hindu Gujarat can integrate with India., 90% Kashmir MUST also integrate with India… provided the rules of the game that are applied (and justified) in Gujarat… are applied to J&K too. How many Muslim IAS officers are posted in Gujarat ? How many policemen ? Compare it with J&K. Almost all “crucial” postings are held by non-muslims… and on top of it.. there is the fine secular humane Indian Army (700,000 strong). Soldiers /Judges / Bureaucrats do not fall from the sky. They come from society. We are seeing Lt. Gen. Purohit’s true character peel off.. from the relevations ! We are seeing the true color of Saints and Sadhvis… the true colours of Lt. Gen’s… the true colours of self-appointed Sankaracharyas.. and Doctors… !

    Fact of the matter is., that India is pre-dominantly a Hindu Country (and by Hindu.. it may have its divisions.. but it is united on one thing.. it is something that is NOT muslim). Fine… Great.. History is presenting India with an opportunity to choose from 2 options.

    Choose the idea of a progressive India or RSS. It cant have both. The path of RSS will lead to destruction and turn India into Afghanistan. Unfortunately Congress… Sonia… Rahul… do not have the stature to tutor the nation.. to explain to the nation.. win their hearts and minds to the ARGUMENT… that RSS is worst than AIDS for the Hindu Religion… and for the Hindu Society. Savarkar’s Hindutva will destroy Hinduism… though it will provide some thrill and excitement in the short-term.

    There is a history of the Mongols.. and their destruction. Hate destroys its practitioner in the long term.

    RSS presents an intellectual challenge to the IDEA of India. Sonia/Rahul must take this bull by its horns…and save India.. There is a price to that risk. Electoral Defeat… Let the Congress lose 10 elections in a row… but never compromise on the ideals. If Congress fields BJP-rejects… and accepts Vaghelas.. (Soft Hindutva).. and shies away from the IDEA of India.. makes compromises on the way… it will pave the way for BJP/RSS to power… and once in power… these RSS ; this RSS/Police/Army combination (Safforn in Uniform) ; these Sadhus.. .these self-appointed Sankaracharyas… will destroy India… and turn it into a rubble.

    Congress Party has to sacrifice for the IDEA of India., and take the hate-bank politics of RSS/BJP by its horns. There are no soft options.

    Save India or Save RSS. The choice is for India to make.

  100. Vandana says:

    Dastgir sahib we Hindus are not a monolithic entity and as such the danger of our going the Afghan way are a bit remote,no matter what your convictions.Aap to RSS ki nafrat ke chashme se hi dekhte hain sab kuch……aap ko kis ne keh diya ki hum sab RSS ko fiollow karte hain?
    Baki Congress ki reality bhi kuch aur hi hai….they have the longest history of using the Muslims as nothing more than a vote bank and then keeping them in a corner lest they see the truth if they develop and prosper.Kiya kya Congress ne Muslims ke liye?

  101. Vandana says:

    Hate destroys its practitioner in the long term.
    And this line you wrote might be a good thing to remember going ahead.I do not see much love in your comments.

  102. Dastagir says:

    THE TRAP – CHAKKI KE DO PAA`T !

    On a civilisational / community level, there is a “love” and “peace” of the weak, which does not hold water. The fire of evil spreads quick like the forest-fire – the plant of love is feeble and needs constant nurturing (over decades and generations). This is the ETERNAL fight for the good versus the evil (that resides in man).

    RSS is India’s greatest enemy. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru and Mrs. Sarojini Naidu.. represented the finest and eclectic traditions of Hinduism. Narendra Modi and Sadhvi Pragya represent the uglier side… but UGLINESS and CHEAP-STUFF sells quick… attracts quick attention. Like vulgar literature, it sells quick and sells hot. In the short term, it may provide some THRILL… but in the long term… it is making young Hindu boys into killers and rapists. The same principle (yard-stick) applies to the Mullah.. or the Bishop.

    Preach your religion.. praise your religion.. but DO NOT preach hatred for the other… cuz then.. you arouse the evil in man. A cult of “mob-violence” is built. Nazis of Germany / RSS / Savarkar / Sadhvi / Modi / Togadia / VHP / etc. etc. represent the tradition to build groups… and unleash mob-violence in society against “THE OTHER”. They cannot survive for one-day without hatred for the other. Inki Gaadi NAFRAT ke FUEL par chalti hai.

    Congress (Soft Hindutva) is the lesser evil. Indian Muslims (15% of the total population – but in terms of jobs – loans – army – RAW – Medical – Engineering – IIT – IIM etc. where do they stand… it is clear to all those who have read 400 pages of the Sachar Report. I was foolish enough to read the whole of that Report – and tried to assimilate those facts/statistics). It shows a real picture. There is the eternal excuse : “But where are qualified muslims… “.. OK.. this is a bunch of illiterates.. so be it.. What is their percentage in Class IV jobs… what is the percentage of loans provided to the unemployed Muslim auto-rickshaw-wallas ? The discrimination is glaring and the silence is deafening.

    A society to be healthy and thriving must be “all inclusive”. Muslims must NOT get any special favours done unto them.. cuz they pray differently… but where they are qualified… their religion (way of prayer) must not be a factor to their dis-advantage… whether it be in opportunities of education.. jobs.. loans.. allotment of paatas… and most importantly… SECURITY of LIFE, HONOR and PROPERTY. Rich muslims pay taxes fear-fully cuz the wrath of the Govt. falls rather hardly on Muslims ! In the Abolition of Zamindari Act 1952… the hard-hand fell on Muslim Zamindars.. who became poor over-night. Today I see my Hindu friends holding 400 acres of land ! A way was found out.. “The Hindu Undivided Family Act’.. so 500.. 400.. 300 acres were held by families.

    A society can survive without religion… but not without justice. This principle is universal for a healthy society.. and applies to India (however layered it may be)… and to Pakistan and to Bangladesh and others.

    The danger of RSS is not coming to the front page of TIME… Newsweek.. Reuters… Der Speigel… Washington Post.. and NYT… because like a coward who beats his wife within his home.. or hut… RSS is doing its dirty work within the confines of India.. so no one outside is literally bothered. It is taken as bad-tameezi.. domestic violence.. but its ugly face must be exposed. It is the job of scholars.. academicians.. to devote their whole lives… and document the ugly and the dirty work done by RSS which is the largest terrorist organisation in the world.

    Nazi Party also represented an ideology… there were people who loved that ideology… but where did it take Germany to ? India can pull on with its poverty.. illiteracy.. disease.. and with all its layers of deprivation… BUT there must be PEACE ON THE GROUND (de-facto peace…). Constitution of India is being challenged by the RSS… who are hiding swords and trishuls in safforn silk. A gun covered by safforn silk is still a weapon… and a threat to society.

    Dirty work produces dirty results. If they do it in Afghanistan., it produces an Afghanistan. If they do it in India., it will produce the same results. The Hindus have shown great wisdom… great restraint… but the BRAIN-WASHING of RSS.. .thru the media.. movies.. literature.. songs.. political leaders (the biggest or atleast the 2nd biggest political party in the country).. it is devastating the hindu mind. Just imagine.. how would a 16 year old take it. What is taught in the 100,000 schools run by the RSS. What is in those books ? Have anyone taken the care to read those books.. Has anyone cared to hear.. and document the dirty talk tnat emanates from those lectures ?

    Anyone propogating hatred must be removed from society. I am civil enough.. but freedom of speech of 100 people must be curtailed for 100 crores to sleep peacefully. Of whatever community.. whatever name.

    RSS ka deep (earlier the symbol of Janasangh) India / Bharat ko jalaa dega. RSS is turning Hindu boys into “mobs”… instigating them to enjoy the thrill… chase muslim girls.. (burka-wali ka peecha karo.. said a prominent BJP Leader in a public meeting).. rape.. murder.. steal their belongings.. their utensils.. their TV sets.. kill them and occupy their property.. where will this all lead to ? 50 years from now… it would lead to a community of criminals… it will change the sociological make-up.. the DNA genome of Hindus… and then the destruction begins.. slowly..

    Have you read Ibn Khaldoun’s “Preface” or Introduction (which has survived history ! It is a marvellous treatise… and applies to all.. Hindus.. Muslims.. etc. Hindus must stand and ask RSS… where was RSS when 25 lakh poor Hindus were suffering the wrath of River Kosi in Bihar ? Where is RSS when a poor Hindu girl is to be married ? Where is RSS when a poor Hindu is sick ? Where is RSS when a poor Hindu suffers some calamity ??? Why does RSS appear only to make hate-speeches… and turn ordinary Hindu boys into rapists and crime ? Hindu society must sit down and intro-spect… the DEEMAK that RSS is injecting… to destroy Hinduism. Hinduism has survived 700 years of Muslim Rule.. (and yet remained a majority)… Hinduism has survived 200 yrs of British (Christian) rule.. and yet remained a majority.. but Hinduism cannot survive 1 century of Hindutva Dosage. It will crumble. Hate takes a society to a high-pitch.. and after that.. the down-slide begins. I want Hinduism to regain its eclectic flavour.. snatch Hinduism from the Hindutva goons.. who are (and who will) destroy it.. thru their barbarianism..

    As for Indian Muslims they are between 2 stones (Soft Hindutva practiced by congress of Sardar Patel.. Vaghela.. … versus.. Hard Hindutva represented by Modi.. Togadia.. Singhal.. Sadhvi.. That is the reason.. they support Congress.. inspite of knowing the WHOLE truth.. Saanp aur Bich`choo ke beech.. w`oh Bich`choo ko prefer kartey hain.. because it is the lesser evil.

    India is blessed with a “diversity”.. that took thousands of years to make. Unfortunately, at the hand of barbarians.. it may get smashed into smithereens in a very short period.

    It takes a tree 25 years to grow to full height. The axe of hatred brings it down in 25 minutes.

    Jai Hind

  103. Jim Spence says:

    I was searching for Blogs about pal grants for college and found this site. I am interested in your content and appreciate sites like this.

  104. Shahid says:

    We are Pakistanis, Pakistan is ours

  105. hulk says:

    wow! its intresting over here, i am a kashmiri pandit,1st i want to answer SUNIL hello sir can you please tell me yout gotra??2nd may be you are agree but i am not,because i know,my grandpa told me after 1989 we were treated like dogs or animals(but not all kashmiri muslim,but the people who were politically apointed)…well i dun want to add on more to this,i dun want to make this topic by telling all the realities…….and mr DATAGIR lz i want to mind you,that you are no one to tell the impression of 80crore hindu or 18crore indian muslim…just i say please stop plaing dirty political game in kashmir…waki apne ap theek ho jayega(and i want to tell you not only my family but a muslim family migrated to central india with us because they want to grow)and we are happy,you people are who to tell us that what we want??why you producing a fire between hindu and muslim???

    listen my friends…how many of you know that wular and dal lake of kashmir shrinking?leh is turning into a black desert slowly?

    so please i request you all stop talking like non sence and pay attention to other issues,and people i request you plz try to be human being 1st ok.

    and answer me a ques if any1 can

    CAN ANY1 ONE TELL WHAT WILL HAPEN AFTER DEATH RATHER THAN RELIGIOUS CHAPTER??

  106. shiekh says:

    Hulk bata, come back to valley, we can discuss this stuff back home on wullar bank or boulevard road, , I miss you guys. Mara wali gare,

  107. zakir naik says:

    Kashmir ki azadi tak sakon nahi hoga.

  108. Kaul Ashok bhu says:

    My book Kashmir:Fractured Nativity(Closed options,open possibilities) has just beenpublished by VDM(Germany).Whatever I have missed in the book ,I feel increasingly inclind to put it now in fiction.
    My argument is Kashmir has history of invasions, no other place has been invaded and ruled by non natives,as in case of kashmir.it is not a war for religion or Pakistan`s unfinished agenda of partition.It is a product of invasional history and as an essential product of the Cold war.The demise of the Cold war brought it on faultlines,which further fragmented it.Nativity is beyond religion and closer to culture.Fractured nativity is no freedom.Reinventing nativity would make kashmiri society a healthy society.(For the time being this much).

  109. Fatima says:

    I agree with Javed Choudry

  110. Monika says:

    Kashmir needs azadi from Pakistan like Baluchistan as both territories are acquired deceitfully after ‘Pakistan’ came into being on the bases of ‘Islam’. How long can Pakistanis live in the shadow of their delusional psyche and kill innocent Indians (Hindus, as they are their target to be precise – hint* follow Zaid Hamid) for the sake of their own insecurities. Senseless and ignorant society it is!
    As for Madam Roy, you got to shut your gobbledygook or are you waiting for someone close to you getting killed in some terror attack and then only you will come to your senses about your beloved ‘Pakistan’? Madam Roy, write some better books, we haven’t read anything good from you after ‘God of small things’. Maybe your mind got corrupted!

  111. Manish Zijoo says:

    My wounded scars have not yet healed,
    In exile, everyday,
    my heart bleed…

    I too have a voice, you need ears to listen
    I too have emotions;
    you need a heart to feel it…

    I too am a human being, I too have a life,
    With eyes open,
    you can see my strife..

    my politicians don’t want the truth to come out,
    They don’t want me to stand by truth,
    and shout..

    they don’t like bitter truth’s taste,
    for them,
    my truth is just a waste..

    20 years of exiled imprisonment & still Under locks,
    my truth has been blocked,
    my truth has been locked..

    truth strangulated, justice denied,
    oh! this is so unfair,
    my choked truth is Gasping for air,but my India doesn’t care..

    Manish Zijoo

  112. be_Human says:

    The rigid attitude of Indian & Pakistan governments has raised serious problems in Kashmir.Both have domestic political issues due to which the Heads of these states can’t change the traditional policy followed by both countries towards Kashmir.Indian govt has committed many mistakes in handling this issue and there have been innumerable cases of human rights violation . The Indian government has it’s own repercussions as setting Kashmir free may set a cat among pigeons.India being a large nation my have to face similar demands from it’s other states.Pakistan feels that it has been deprived of it’s right on Kashmir which may be right but both countries have faced human rights violation in some or the other parts-India in states like Kashmir & Gujarat while Pakistan in Baluchistan.So there is not much diff between the two on this account.
    As the majority of people in Pakistan are followers of Islam, their pain for the Kashmir’s valley can be understood.One possible solution is India may keep all the Sikh and Hindu dominated areas of Jam-mu & Ladakh while Pakistan can keep the western areas of valley.One more problem is that Indians believe that Pakistan may not keep quite but stress for older issues like Hyderabad & Junagarh.This may be a concern to India.One more solution is that both should keep that part which is in current occupation.There is a major problem of “infiltrators” labeled as terrorists by India although this may not be completely correct.The problem also has another dimension.Both want to keep the control of Rivers originating from Kashmir in their own hands

    If a solution is to be reached both parties have to shift from their current rigid stands otherwise India and Pakistan will keep bleeding

  113. haris says:

    Hello
    An interview of with veteran kashmiri scholar Dr. Fai at “Kashmir Calling” , a program by NewsCrackers Network. Watch more here
    http://youtu.be/ggoCPNguqUw
    Thanks
    Producer
    Haris Sheikh
    NewsCrackers Network
    http://www.newscrackers.com
    Canada

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